Written by ms68 on 13.05.2009 at 12:14

Written by Ragana on 26.04.2009 at 19:43

Part of women still get less payment than men. So, only because we are the 'weakest' of both genders, we should get less payment for the same job?

women earn less salary because they have less responsibility.

If they have the same job they have the same degree of responsibility.

How? Don't you think it's better to talk much clearer? You only reversed my sentence in your reply.

Written by akatana on 14.05.2009 at 17:25


how on earth does a woman who has the same job as a man have less responsibility? I know that in your country women are treated as objects and not human beings but I expected at least that young people (like you who have access to the outside world) break away from the sexism and start to treat women as equals. I guess I was wrong.

I'm not talking about their responsibility in job but responsibility in family. for example a women can be lazy and all time be at home or enjoy herself somewhere and do nothing and with her looks and her bodily features attract a PhD man like you to hereself then marry to him then go with another man then made the first man to divorce her then steal the money of the first one and repeat this act... who is miserable here?
or imagine you marry a PhD woman. if she earn money equal to you how can you guarantee that the woman won't left you and won't steal half of your belongings and won't marry with another one? when in divorce men must atone then men must earn more money to:1. subordinate women. 2. have money for this kind of situation.
Changing constitutions is only way to escape from this condition.
you expect from a person to break away from the sexism who prefer haven't relationship with female because this awful situation.
women earn less money because they don't need since however, they'll get alimony from their husbands.

Written by ms68 on 14.05.2009 at 20:56

or imagine you marry a PhD woman. if she earn money equal to you how can you guarantee that the woman won't left you and won't steal half of your belongings

If she earns money equal to her husband (like as you said) why the heck would she want to steal something from him? With an attitude like this you just insult women.

Besides, you already forgot about something. If there's only a mother in a family, what to do then? Ignore the fact that her husband has died/left her with three kids and still pay her less money just because she's a woman?

Jeez, some of the immensely male chauvanist pig comments running rampant here. But seeing where those posters come from it isn't surprising. Apparently to those posters rasiing the children and doing all the house chores and all is less of a responsibility than someone working in an office. damn, how blind can one be.

Well pretty much any woman I marry will be making more money than I will. Gosh, I had better lock up all my stuff because she might rob me!

Women are Weaker (muscles!!!) than Men but not Inferior. I think women are in trouble cause they cant accept Men's behaviours. for example if I do what I do with a male friend to a female one, she would be sad. hehe, can I speak so open to her? as I speak to a male friend? No I Cant, cuase she will say that "You dont know how speak with a woman" !!! , and its one of the reasons which make women out of Society. they think that Women are 100% different ! these are not men who think like this, these are women themselves. but maybe sometimes men helped this situation. a lot of men cant take that u speak with their wives so close as they talk to u! but come on! as I said it comes from Nature, at least 70% of men dont like to let their wives to act free. I cant say what is true or false, but I can say that I like my girl to be free, and ppl show themselves when they are free, when someone is free men or women, he/she will show his true personality and then you can like/love him or dont like. ppl's problem is that they want to change eachother, I mean both genders. and cause Men are powerful they win the race! and then illness starts, Feminism.

Written by Ragana on 14.05.2009 at 21:23

If she earns money equal to her husband (like as you said) why the heck would she want to steal something from him? With an attitude like this you just insult women.

Greed

Quote:

Besides, you already forgot about something. If there's only a mother in a family, what to do then? Ignore the fact that her husband has died/left her with three kids and still pay her less money just because she's a woman?

i'm agree with you in this matter.

Written by Marcel Hubregtse on 14.05.2009 at 22:11

Jeez, some of the immensely male chauvanist pig comments running rampant here. But seeing where those posters come from it isn't surprising.

I think at least you as a staff should read FAQ once. when you don't do this and in your post you only insult and talk about racism what do you expect from another? you always accuse members to making controversy but you can obviously see who tries to fuck around here.

Quote:

Apparently to those posters rasiing the children and doing all the house chores and all is less of a responsibility than someone working in an office. damn, how blind can one be.

I'm sure you didn't read my posts entirely and you only wanted to say something.

Written by akatana on 14.05.2009 at 23:16

I think that says a lot about how you view women .. and about your insecurities. you want you woman to be a slave to you and have as little rights as possible because you think that she will not leave you like that. I have to say that by your behavior towards women, any woman would leave you.

Of course you are right and my view has come from all that i see around myself but not only in my country also things that i see day to day in movies and news. if you haven't these problems at all you may live in utopia.

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Why should a woman get money from her husband?

It's a rule. at least in my country.

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how would you feel to be totally dependent on somebody for living? Having no rights? Just because you think a woman will leave you if she would have money?

You talk like i said women shouldn't work out but i didn't say this.

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You are just a product of your crazy religious society. The enemy of reason is faith and only such dumb faith could not see the simple logic of equal rights.

your guess was wrong. i don't believe in religion at all. now you realize how wrong you were.

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Genital mutilation, the savage oppression of women and the brutal sexual apartheid

I really don't know what the hell you are talking about. maybe you listen a lot to cannibal corpse. but at least in my city i didn't see this kind of things at all.

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It's useless to continue this discussion.

100% agree.

@ taka, take a look at North Country movie. I think u will find some cages over there!

Dont get me wrong man, I know what are you talkin about, but its not nice to Criticize countries which u didnt even see a ture movie about them!

Im very open mind about women, but I hate to pose you know? most western ppl just pose about this.

Written by akatana on 15.05.2009 at 15:31

Written by [user id=31891] on 15.05.2009 at 14:26

Dont get me wrong man, I know what are you talkin about, but its not nice to Criticize countries which u didnt even see a ture movie about them!

Im very open mind about women, but I hate to pose you know? most western ppl just pose about this.

I have been to muslim countries and know how women are treated there.
But what I don;t understand is what do you mean by posing?

lets not talk about Islam or religions, cause Islam has nothin with this topic. Im against Islam myself as Im not a religionist. but take a look at african countries, women rule there? no, but a lot of them arent muslim.

middle esast and africa is bullshit, and I cant explain why, some of them are like this cause of money and some cause of their personality! really poor in head and pocket. and its where that Jungle laws rule.

but about "Pose" , dont tell me that you western ppl respect women as men. cause as I read ladies post over here I realized that you wont. thats why I say dont pose! talk too much about their freedom and ... so what? if you respect them like this, so why you pay them less? cause you wanna use them as a ....
its not freedom cause women out there dont have Scarfs, hehe, its just one thing man.

Written by [user id=31891] on 15.05.2009 at 16:22

take a look at african countries, women rule there?

Actually, Africa has the highest number of matrilinear, matrilocal and avunculocal societies amongst indigenous people of all continents. Just sayin..

Written by jupitreas on 15.05.2009 at 16:29

Written by [user id=31891] on 15.05.2009 at 16:22

take a look at african countries, women rule there?

Actually, Africa has the highest number of matrilinear, matrilocal and avunculocal societies amongst indigenous people of all continents. Just sayin..

I cant uderstan these big words, plz explain me! you mean women rights are good there?

Written by [user id=31891] on 15.05.2009 at 16:49

I cant uderstan these big words, plz explain me! you mean women rights are good there?

I mean that they have social systems where women are actually in leading positions.

Written by jupitreas on 15.05.2009 at 16:53

Written by [user id=31891] on 15.05.2009 at 16:49

I cant uderstan these big words, plz explain me! you mean women rights are good there?

I mean that they have social systems where women are actually in leading positions.

I dont think if its specially owned to Africans man, for example in Iran's history there were some Religions like Mitra Worshiping and some others which had some rules of Women Worshiping but I dont think this is an important reason to call all Iranians Women Worshipers. and again it has nothin with their rights and freedom.

Written by akatana on 14.05.2009 at 17:25

....I know that in your country women are treated as objects and not human beings....

That's right, unfortunately. The shocking fact is that many women themselves are male chauvanists. They refuse to be something more that mere sex toys and submit all their goals to their husbands. Instead of trying to improve themselves and be independent they'd rather focus on finding a rich educated husband to rely on!
As always, There are exeptions indeed. every year on March 8th, there are gatherings in Tehran (and some other cities) which are always disturbed by police invasion.
Most common branch of Feminism here is Islamic-Feminism_ as expected_ Which obviously is nothing but a diversionary tactic, IMO. Such a combination is imposible and ridiculous since this fuckin Islam itself is the root of opression, but at least, it's better than nothing....
considering the-below-zero degree of human rights, speaking of women's rights is in vain. Thus it's not equevalent to Marxist-Feminists theory over capitalism, stating "by destroying class-opression, gender-opression will disappear as well". But we have to prioritize, without reaching to an acceptable level of human rights for all, trying to gain more rights for miorities is in fact simplistic. When a woman has no right as a human being, how can she expect to be respected as a woman?
We'd better all (men & women) work on human rights first and then on women's issues specifically.

Written by akatana on 14.05.2009 at 23:16

...Genital mutilation...

It's purely a matter of culture in some countries. In Islam, circumcision is soley limited to males. In fact Genital mutilation is against Islamic rules.

Written by akatana on 15.05.2009 at 11:30

The idea is that in countries like mine people are actively trying to get equal rights to women and to change the dark-age mentality of some people that women are somewhat inferior and deserve a lesser place in society. There is still prejudice even in more civilized countries but at least we are trying to improve the situation.

Let me also add that:
whilst capital punishment is abolished in almost all European countries, not only we are among the countries with highest execution rate but also minors are being hanged. In spite of goverment's propaganda against Capitalism and such, worker's sandycates which are allowed to act legally are fake, real activists and striking-workers jailed/fired. needless no speak of "freedom of the press" and its nonexistance or that honor murders still happen in some cities....Just to name a few....
BUT,
It's not that we are all sitting here counting the flies! If we make no progress, it doesnt mean we don't want to change anything. If you see no significant improvement like you do in your own country, don't interperet that as us all being a bunch of passive surrenders....It' just too complicated. Many want to do something but what can they do on their own when there's even no NGO. Every path leads to a wall....In such a situation, there's a point when you realize you've been running in a wheel so far and finally decide to preserve your remaining energy for personal afairs rather than making futile efforts to provoke a nationalwide transition from the imposed conformity.
Not everyone is as lucky as this recent case of Roksana Saberi to have American citizenship to get worldwide attention. You just have no idea of university students who are jailed or suspended/ kicked out university for their political/ social activities.
All in all, i wanted to tell you that there's a considerable number of "fading unheard voices" in Iran....If you know what i mean.....

Written by Marcel Hubregtse on 14.05.2009 at 22:11

But seeing where those posters come from it isn't surprising...

But seeing another poster who is not from the aforementioned country thus unaware of naivete of hasty generalizations is really surprising.

Written by ms68 on 15.05.2009 at 09:43

Written by Ragana on 14.05.2009 at 21:23

If she earns money equal to her husband (like as you said) why the heck would she want to steal something from him? With an attitude like this you just insult women.

Greed

You're kidding, right? Imagine a woman who earns really big money because she does a great job, so she can stand by her own. Then why would she steal something from her (ex) husband if she is capable to live alone and not poorly (remember - she's earning a lot)? I bet she even wouldn't want to hear about him after the divorce.
Instead of looking at yourself (men in general) you just see women as major thieves who are living on your land.

Written by ms68 on 15.05.2009 at 09:43

Written by Ragana on 14.05.2009 at 21:23

Besides, you already forgot about something. If there's only a mother in a family, what to do then? Ignore the fact that her husband has died/left her with three kids and still pay her less money just because she's a woman?

i'm agree with you in this matter.

...well, that's not really an answer to my question, and definitely - not a solution.


BTW, we're not talking only about few parts of the Earth, we're talking about it in general. This problem is actual in every country though in some - just more.

Written by AiwiAstwihad on 15.05.2009 at 23:35


But seeing another poster who is not from the aforementioned country thus unaware of naivete of hasty generalizations is really surprising.

I can understand people thinking that but I LIVED in Saudi Arabia and have also been to Persia AND IRAN.
I can howveer understand that people think I am coming to a hasty generalization whereas I am not. It's not only thos ecountries I have lived in and been to but I hav ealso lived and been to other Islamic cpuntries (in South East Asia) where women were regarded in just the same way.

@ taka

all anti-women laws dotn come from the heart of Religions, for example, take a look at Extreme porn movies which is made of USA and Europe. what is your oppinion about such things? you know what I am talking about. (movies which even won some awards too! not underground movies)

Written by akatana on 16.05.2009 at 07:39

It is never easy to change such a regime but trust me, every tyrannical regime will go down sooner or later, when the critical mass of people is achieved and the social injustice will be too much.

There is another problem in Iran. Many people have prejudice about religion and also government is under the flag of religion and they hide their foul plans behind the mask of religion. For example recently one man from government cabinet said about president election this sentence: "vote to someone who God wants" and he means from “who god wants” the president of his government. And I think these problems will not end till people left their prejudice about religion. (All the matter is religion)

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Look at ms68, even if he is young and has access to the outside world he is still filled with prejudice and hatred towards women (and I bet against other people as well) and such people are the problem.

Hatred towards women hasn't any relevance to prejudice. You have time to think about your words before posting them (if you don't want say nonsense). as I understood in this conversation you are a man who quote another people opinions in the name of himself to show his face intellectual but the problem is he don't know the theories he is talking about has been collapsed many years ago because their theoreticians didn't consider all the aspect of matters. You are eating shit of the fucked cliché word of freedom and beside that you accuse me because I want to talk about my opinion and understand about good and bad of that.
Of course it sounds good to saying men & women are equal and they should have the same right and show yourself as an intellectual and show your opposite narrow mind but you didn't think even for a moment that maybe the things he saw from women is different from thing I saw. Maybe women in his environment are different.
You only distort reality to have something to complain about like "in Iran women usually get sentenced if they get raped or beaten rather than being helped". This kind of nonsense made me mad. Maybe I’m wrong. Maybe you don't distort reality because you don't know anything from reality in Iran and you only create that from your psychotic imagination like the thing you said about mutilation.
In the ending of your post you only say I had more expectations from you and people like you but alas you don't think like me and maybe you expect from me to beat myself and tears about why a cool dummy is complaining about me.
How you can guarantee the things you say. You only act like 14-year-old period girl who only want to complain about something but you never told what will happen if men and women have equal rights. What will come to you? As I said you only want to act like act like open-minds to look yourself cool and show others how cool people you are and how someone like me who aren't agree with you is misanthrope. Now you can see why I hate people like you cool man.
Anyway I must say I don't hate women at all and only fools like you can interpret critic about feminism as hating woman and looking women as object. I thought this is a free-talk about feminism but it seems this is a thread to only defend from feminism. Ok, I won't post here again. Enjoy.

Written by Marcel Hubregtse on 16.05.2009 at 00:11

I can understand people thinking that but I LIVED in Saudi Arabia and have also been to Persia AND IRAN.
I can howveer understand that people think I am coming to a hasty generalization whereas I am not. It's not only thos ecountries I have lived in and been to but I hav ealso lived and been to other Islamic cpuntries (in South East Asia) where women were regarded in just the same way.

I've never denied the fucked up situation here but have you been here recently or stayed long enough to see men in lets say sessions (legal or illegal) over woman's issues whether as orator or attendee?
By "hasty generalization" i was refering to the way you linked the term "male chauvinist pigs" to nationality and took it as a result of them being from Iran. If it wasn't what you meant, fine then...

Written by AiwiAstwihad on 16.05.2009 at 23:49

Written by Marcel Hubregtse on 16.05.2009 at 00:11

I can understand people thinking that but I LIVED in Saudi Arabia and have also been to Persia AND IRAN.
I can howveer understand that people think I am coming to a hasty generalization whereas I am not. It's not only thos ecountries I have lived in and been to but I hav ealso lived and been to other Islamic cpuntries (in South East Asia) where women were regarded in just the same way.

I've never denied the fucked up situation here but have you been here recently or stayed long enough to see men in lets say sessions (legal or illegal) over woman's issues whether as orator or attendee?
By "hasty generalization" i was refering to the way you linked the term "male chauvinist pigs" to nationality and took it as a result of them being from Iran. If it wasn't what you meant, fine then...

I didn't link "male chauvinist pigs" to a country but to a religion (which in this case rules your country) It was just unfortunate that all the posters in this thread who regarded women to be less than men were all from the same country,

Written by Marcel Hubregtse on 17.05.2009 at 01:20

Written by AiwiAstwihad on 16.05.2009 at 23:49

Written by Marcel Hubregtse on 16.05.2009 at 00:11

I can understand people thinking that but I LIVED in Saudi Arabia and have also been to Persia AND IRAN.
I can howveer understand that people think I am coming to a hasty generalization whereas I am not. It's not only thos ecountries I have lived in and been to but I hav ealso lived and been to other Islamic cpuntries (in South East Asia) where women were regarded in just the same way.

I've never denied the fucked up situation here but have you been here recently or stayed long enough to see men in lets say sessions (legal or illegal) over woman's issues whether as orator or attendee?
By "hasty generalization" i was refering to the way you linked the term "male chauvinist pigs" to nationality and took it as a result of them being from Iran. If it wasn't what you meant, fine then...

I didn't link "male chauvinist pigs" to a country but to a religion (which in this case rules your country) It was just unfortunate that all the posters in this thread who regarded women to be less than men were all from the same country,

what about your own country? talk about behaviours which is not coming from Religions !!! some none Religious acts which is really Inhuman. I talk about un normal porns which are comin from Netherlands and no one likes it, and unfotunately I can say wild things. be sure Iran doesnt have such things, at least didnt spread like that. when we talk about Iran, its not Iraq, not Afghanistan, not Emirates not any other arab country. casue Iraninan ppl are really different from them, this is goverment which sux the most here, I dont say Iraninan ppl are very nice ppl, I dont like them to be honest, but I dont like your views too, cause its absolutely Wrong. you cant change ppl 180' in 30 years! and as you said you work at a TV station, go find news of iran before 1980 why iranian could travel to world without any Visa's in those times? arent such ppl right now

and as I remember you said your father was at Saudi arabia or Emirates (with his family) and just came here to iran for holidays. can you say which city of iran was it? (cause I want to explain about it, Iran has a lot of different Generations with absolutely different thoughts) and again how can you judge Iran with a holiday? heh (as you judged my city about Thrash music )

The difference between the Americans and the countries with religious rule is that the hate from America is more so misogynistic as opposed to being a religious belief and lifestyle. Not saying there aren't both cases in either, it's just more prominent in this order.

Talking of sexism in religion, doesn't the bible say that because Eve ate the fruit, men were superior to women? It was put more gently in the original text, but I'm lazy. Thought I'd bring it up. Fuel for the fire. Meh.

I think that feminism has a very bad and undeserved reputation, which I see parallels in with religion. A few fanatics give the rest a bad image. The whole bra-burning destroy all men feminists mentioned in the posts should obviously be shot for blatant hypocrisy, but there is a large demographic of people (everywhere) who honestly believe that women are inferior, for religious or other reasons. This is what feminism is trying to cure. I think that that is a valid cause.

Written by Entropic Silence on 24.10.2009 at 11:40

Talking of sexism in religion, doesn't the bible say that because Eve ate the fruit, men were superior to women? It was put more gently in the original text, but I'm lazy. Thought I'd bring it up. Fuel for the fire. Meh.

I think that feminism has a very bad and undeserved reputation, which I see parallels in with religion. A few fanatics give the rest a bad image. The whole bra-burning destroy all men feminists mentioned in the posts should obviously be shot for blatant hypocrisy, but there is a large demographic of people (everywhere) who honestly believe that women are inferior, for religious or other reasons. This is what feminism is trying to cure. I think that that is a valid cause.

Totally agree with your post!

There are parts of the bible which state a man can kill his wife if she disrespects him. In a very similar way aspects of Islam seem to condone and support the notion that men are superior to women. I think feminism was borne out of those attitudes, and due to religion, engrained in many cultures throughout the world. In this case, I would class myself as a feminist, but only in the sense of saying that men and women are equal. Not saying they are the same, but we should all be treated equally. At least in terms of our self worth. I do think the raging feminists who say "all men are pigs", and that men are inferior to women, are no better than the male views that led to repression against women for centuries. And in some parts of the world, still go on. A person's worth, or standing in society shouldn't come down purely to their gender. We are not inferior to men, but we aren't superior to them either, and it does sadden and anger me that feminism has been blackened by those men haters that claim to speak on mine, and all other women's behalf. It is true the extreme feminists give the rest of us a bad name, which is why I distance myself from the term now, which is a shame. If anything, they are even worse than the men who persecuted us for centuries, because they are nothing but hypocrites. Ultra feminists can F right off as far as I'm concerned!

Written by Angelic Storm on 29.10.2009 at 02:21

Totally agree with your post!

I would class myself as a feminist, but only in the sense of saying that men and women are equal. Not saying they are the same, but we should all be treated equally. At least in terms of our self worth.

Thats a great way of putting it. There are issues with the term equality, because obviously men and women are quite different, and as such equating the two gets messy. Thats the other skeleton in the closet of feminism; the idea that we should be equal isn't actually possible. But you've put it brilliantly, especially mentioning that gender shouldn't determine one's worth in society. Couldn't agree more.

Still, men are slightly better, right?

Written by Entropic Silence on 30.10.2009 at 01:18
Thats a great way of putting it. There are issues with the term equality, because obviously men and women are quite different, and as such equating the two gets messy. Thats the other skeleton in the closet of feminism; the idea that we should be equal isn't actually possible. But you've put it brilliantly, especially mentioning that gender shouldn't determine one's worth in society. Couldn't agree more.

Still, men are slightly better, right?

Men and women are different, but I think true equality can reflect those differences as well as not discriminating against those differences. I think women should be treated as equal to men, not that women should be treated AS men. Some men are pigs, but then some women aren't very nice to know either. The problem with sexist male chauvinism, and men hating feminists (I even loath to use that word to describe them!) is it completely negatively generalises a whole group of people purely based on their gender, and that is a very silly and ignorant thing to do really.

Men are slightly better? You're winding me up, right?

Written by Angelic Storm on 30.10.2009 at 02:37

Men and women are different, but I think true equality can reflect those differences as well as not discriminating against those differences. I think women should be treated as equal to men, not that women should be treated AS men. Some men are pigs, but then some women aren't very nice to know either. The problem with sexist male chauvinism, and men hating feminists (I even loath to use that word to describe them!) is it completely negatively generalises a whole group of people purely based on their gender, and that is a very silly and ignorant thing to do really.

Men are slightly better? You're winding me up, right?

But how does one now go about changing attitudes? Its all very well to attack uber-feminists (a term I would like to coin in order to represent women who despise men) but actually changing values of society (because some attitudes to women are as ingrained as cultural values are) isn't easy.

And no, I'm deadly serious. I'm not saying there's a huge gap, but you can't deny that one exists.

Written by Entropic Silence on 30.10.2009 at 01:18

...because obviously men and women are quite different...

So is every single human being on earth from another, so?