The genre rose in the nineties, with the first wave composed by bands like Venom, Bathory, etc. However they sounded very much like thrash metal, but still they were the ones who came up with the anti-christian lyrics and all that satanic image and stuff.
Then there was the second wave which it seems that kind of changed the style completely, the vocals, the monochordic guitars, song structures became close to progressive, atmosphere was grimmer, except that the lyrics remained on the same theme.

I read somewhere that Venom's guys wouldn't consider the bands of the second wave "black metal".

And nowadays if you allow yourself to the black subgenres, you will see that most bands don't have the satanic imagery anymore, neither the lyrics are aimed to that concept.
Also there are bands which have such a unique style that they went far from what one would consider a black metal band of the second wave.

So... What is sufficient to categorize a band as "Black Metal" nowadays? For instance would you guys consider bands like "Botanist" or "Circle of Ouroboros" black metal?
What are your opinions?

I, for one, am super happy with the way black metal turned out, with branching out with subgenre after unique subgenre and, for the most part, abandoning that Satanic image (thank god).

With music like the crazy avant-guarde shit like Blut Aus Nord and Deathspell Omega, the psychedelic stuff like Orassni Pazuzu, Wormlust and Candy Cane, the colossal bands/albums like Elysian Blaze and Weakling, cool ambient/atmospheric shit like Leviathan, Lurker of Chalice and Progenie Terrestre Pura and stuff almost beyond classification like The Meads of Asphodel and Hail Spirit Noir... Black metal today is certainly better than it was back then, that's for damn sure.

Today BM is just a shadow of the past , only 20% can be good, main bands coppy ''true and real'' BM, not 1th wave what musically was more thrash , speed or blackened kike Venom, bathory(old) King Diamond , Celtic Frost
Todays bands try to be as Immortal, Mayhem, Burzum and such sound
BM sound and idea survived, but there are to many and to easy to gte that it lost it uniqness, there also are good bands and ''original'' ideas, but M still are BM, whit all its efect and ideas, but seems bands more dont belive to idea so much, seems they sit on PC not spend time in dark, grim, gloomy forest in follmoon nights

Written by Bad English on 10.02.2014 at 01:36
Todays bands try to be as Immortal, Mayhem, Burzum and such sound

Really? Based on the amount of black metal I listen to I can safely say Immortal, Mayhem, and Burzum are more or less afterthoughts in terms of influences, and definitely aren't copied as directly as you imply here. I know there are still labels out there dedicated to carrying old school stuff but on the whole I'd be willing to bet there are more experimental black metal bands that look outside of black metal for their influences than Immortal/Mayhem/Burzum copiers.

Agreed. Even Darkclones don't seem to be as prolific as they once were. Hell, I rarely find bands that sound like Mayhem, Bathory, Immortal etc.

I'm n00b in bm dept.

I strongly believe that Black Metal nowadays are terrific than it was earlier. Even black metal albums back then spawned back to back classics but underground bm bands nowdays have streched out the level of creativity, competitiveness and obviously music. This has nullified mainstream bm bands' scene. Sorry to say, classics bm bands are now ovulating pathetic records. Some of them choosing groovy path while other are stuck in generic and boring music. At least for me it wasn't appealing.

Written by Troy Killjoy on 10.02.2014 at 02:07

Written by Bad English on 10.02.2014 at 01:36
Todays bands try to be as Immortal, Mayhem, Burzum and such sound

Really? Based on the amount of black metal I listen to I can safely say Immortal, Mayhem, and Burzum are more or less afterthoughts in terms of influences, and definitely aren't copied as directly as you imply here. I know there are still labels out there dedicated to carrying old school stuff but on the whole I'd be willing to bet there are more experimental black metal bands that look outside of black metal for their influences than Immortal/Mayhem/Burzum copiers.

there are good BM bands. but mant try coppy Norvegian scene as much as each politicans coppy others bullshit
If you look my posts in last album tread I listend mamy good new BM bands, but still many what I heard as new edd in MA are just coppy bands I wouod say 50-50

I'm a BM noob but think that this genre is doing pretty good. Tones of diversity and weird stuff going on. Despite this kvlt attitude among a few black metal fans/musicians, this genre continues to absorb interesting influences from other forms of music, making it extra cool.

True BM is dead, because BM was a generational thing, it existed for about 10-15 years, if that, and then died out. Everything that came afterwards, while it had the sound, the image and the ideology, it lacked in relevance. I think as soon as BM went into the "Satanic" waters, it became a self inflicted gunshot wound, because now Satanism and Anti Christian sentiment is as important and as "dangerous" as beating up a kitten. No one gives a shit. That is why I laugh when I see bands like Destroyer 666, Deathspell Omega, Watain, Dimmu, Behemoth, Marduk... They are really tough, lol. Truth to the matter is, that the scene was filled with poseurs and fakes, and the sad thing is that it took me many years to realize that. It is filled with people who have no balls anymore(if they ever did). BM was relevant in the time when Xtianity had it's way in Europe, after that, every band that kept doing the same old thing became obsolete.
The bands who started as BM and reached other limits like Ulver, or started doing something new like Wolves in the Throne Room or Alcest are the bands who changed with time, and as such went into new frontiers and will continue to do so, and therefore have importance of the natural progression. Now, we might not consider these bands "true" BM, but there is no such thing as "true" BM movement (if there was one) left, there is only the so called "post-BM" (although there was no BM movement to speak off) but we might still consider these bands BM nominally.

The new BM with the recipe of old, does not come from the North, it comes from the East, from the Islamic hotbeds, and in my view, those bands (female fronted even) have more balls than the entire BM scene ever did. How many Anti-Islamic bands do we have in Norway? Do Dimmu, Satyricon, Dark Funeral, Gorgoroth, God Seed, Marduk, Deathspell Omega, Watain or any other "KVLT" BM have enough balls to speak up against the true enemy of free thought, of the Islamic scourge that will threaten our music, shows and our way of life? I don't think so. So the answer is there, bunch of fakes and gimmick masters.

All been said before in about three other threads

Written by Rasputin on 10.02.2014 at 19:01

The bands who started as BM and reached other limits like Ulver, or started doing something new like Wolves in the Throne Room or Alcest are the bands who changed with time, and as such went into new frontiers and will continue to do so, and therefore have importance of the natural progression. Now, we might not consider these bands "true" BM, but there is no such thing as "true" BM movement (if there was one) left, there is only the so called "post-BM" (although there was no BM movement to speak off) but we might still consider these bands BM nominally.

>> I guess this summarizes about what most of the other posters commented. <<

The scene we have today is the post-bm, no more satanic ideals, no more corpse paint, unless for the few copycats remaining.
But if the ideology is dead, the bands don't longer sound like the first or second wave ones, then in what does it consist? There must bbe still some essential elements remaining.

... Actually that's what I'd like to know when I started this

Written by Bad English on 10.02.2014 at 01:36

... but seems bands more dont belive to idea so much, seems they sit on PC not spend time in dark, grim, gloomy forest in follmoon nights

Ha ha. They probably carry their axes among the woods in the world of warcraft nowadays.

Written by Rasputin on 10.02.2014 at 19:01

The new BM with the recipe of old, does not come from the North, it comes from the East, from the Islamic hotbeds, and in my view, those bands (female fronted even) have more balls than the entire BM scene ever did. How many Anti-Islamic bands do we have in Norway? Do Dimmu, Satyricon, Dark Funeral, Gorgoroth, God Seed, Marduk, Deathspell Omega, Watain or any other "KVLT" BM have enough balls to speak up against the true enemy of free thought, of the Islamic scourge that will threaten our music, shows and our way of life? I don't think so. So the answer is there, bunch of fakes and gimmick masters.

Again agree with you. I respect most religions, and also think is kind of stupid to write lyrics mocking those believers who are trying to sit on their corner and do their cults without bothering the others. However this doesn't apply for Islam. I don't know much about it, but for what I've heard it's indeed dangerous for society. So I support anti-islamic bands.

Written by Rasputin on 10.02.2014 at 19:01

True BM is dead, because BM was a generational thing, it existed for about 10-15 years, if that, and then died out. Everything that came afterwards, while it had the sound, the image and the ideology, it lacked in relevance. I think as soon as BM went into the "Satanic" waters, it became a self inflicted gunshot wound, because now Satanism and Anti Christian sentiment is as important and as "dangerous" as beating up a kitten. No one gives a shit. That is why I laugh when I see bands like Destroyer 666, Deathspell Omega, Watain, Dimmu, Behemoth, Marduk... They are really tough, lol. Truth to the matter is, that the scene was filled with poseurs and fakes, and the sad thing is that it took me many years to realize that. It is filled with people who have no balls anymore(if they ever did). BM was relevant in the time when Xtianity had it's way in Europe, after that, every band that kept doing the same old thing became obsolete.
The bands who started as BM and reached other limits like Ulver, or started doing something new like Wolves in the Throne Room or Alcest are the bands who changed with time, and as such went into new frontiers and will continue to do so, and therefore have importance of the natural progression. Now, we might not consider these bands "true" BM, but there is no such thing as "true" BM movement (if there was one) left, there is only the so called "post-BM" (although there was no BM movement to speak off) but we might still consider these bands BM nominally.

The new BM with the recipe of old, does not come from the North, it comes from the East, from the Islamic hotbeds, and in my view, those bands (female fronted even) have more balls than the entire BM scene ever did. How many Anti-Islamic bands do we have in Norway? Do Dimmu, Satyricon, Dark Funeral, Gorgoroth, God Seed, Marduk, Deathspell Omega, Watain or any other "KVLT" BM have enough balls to speak up against the true enemy of free thought, of the Islamic scourge that will threaten our music, shows and our way of life? I don't think so. So the answer is there, bunch of fakes and gimmick masters.

Maybe most interesting think in forums I have read long long time
Good pion but I disgaree, I would say BM is age between 16-30 period to be true as old BM was, its men's and sometimes women's age in this case, and same time some bands still can come out , but somehow you're wright sometimes in MA I see new bands what has balls and are good but some are just shadows and BM is guitar sound, atmosfere, lyrics not only satanism,
East has to rebel aganst, islamic bulshit, Europe just lost needs to this, we have super democracy (even how pathetic it sounds) we dont need protest, but soon, wait when our life standarts will colapse and then it might reborn
East has to rebel aganst and it can work there, since metal as rebel form lost its meaning generally in society

Written by Karlabos on 10.02.2014 at 22:40

I don't know much about it, but for what I've heard it's indeed dangerous for society. So I support anti-islamic bands.

People say the same thing about metal.

I never really cared too much for old (2nd gen) black metal. Immortal was one of my favorite bands and still is (sometimes), but as some bands showed progression in composition, which made me quickly forget about the dumbness of the Norsk Arisk BM era.

Regarding the very first version of BM, I still occasionally put up some Mercyful Fate on my mp3 because it's so damn good, but I could never think of that as an actual wave, consider there were so few bands...

Black metal is my favourite genre and As much as I love the old school Norwegian bands, I cannot be more happy with present day black metal. Its the most diverse metal genre you have right now, so many varied styles and so many great bands, I think calling these bands not true enough just because they brought innovation to the genre is a load of bull.

Written by Guest on 09.02.2014 at 21:14

With music like the crazy avant-gaurd shit like Blut Aus Nord and Deathspell Omega, the psychedelic stuff like Orassni Pazuzu, Wormlust and Candy Cane, the colossal bands/albums like Elysian Blaze and Weakling, cool ambient/atmospheric shit like Leviathan, Lurker of Chalice and Progenie Terrestre Pura and stuff almost beyond classification like The Meads of Asphodel and Hail Spirit Noir... Black metal today is certainly better than it was back then, that's for damn sure.

Agreed 200%

Anyway, I see black metal like this

First Wave (c. 1980 - early 90s): This was pretty much just blackened thrash, thrash metal with a really dark, evil Satan theme. You can call it black metal, because back then, that's what black metal pretty much was: bands like Venom, Bathory, and Celtic Frost. Also, even though they weren't exactly much like the rest, Mercyful Fate contributed enormously to developing the genre's lyrical/visual themes.

Second Wave (early 90s - 2000, with some bands today still maintaining the style): This is when the genre really took off and blossomed. Borrowing mostly from Bathory's usage of shrieked vocals and really low-quality production, this new black metal was a lot darker and rawer, even more aggressively in your face than before. The Satan themes were still there, but they also evolved into pro-Pagan themes as well. Not all bands were just pure evil energy either, and a few stood out here and there for releases that were quite melodic and epic (Enslaved and early Blut Aus Nord, for example). These bands that deviated from the main pack in some ways planted the seeds for what black metal would evolve into in the future.

Third Wave (2000-present): Black metal in its current incarnation seems to be branching out as far as possible. People often stereotype the genre as elitist, but that claim is becoming less and less accurate with the stranger and stranger bands we've been getting in recent years. Black metal's seen the incorporation of psychedelia (Oranssi Pazuzu, Wormlust), jazz (Shining), punk (Kvelertak, The Meads Of Asphodel), stoner metal (Glorior Belli, The Flight Of Sleipnir), and much more. I don't really like to think of this so much as the genre selling out as much as that it's branching out and realizing its full potential. The main ideology that I would say lies at the core of black metal is an opposition to convention, and a celebration of any and all things unconventional. So following this line of thought, I think it's really just a natural evolution for bands to begin looking for strange and bizarre elements to fuse with their music. I would say that currently, we're living in the era of black metal coming full circle, and I for one can't get enough of it

Venom are not and have never been thrash. They have been an influence on it, but have never been it. That would be like saying Motörhead were thrash. Early Bathory also not thrash, damn that band band started out as a Venom copy band. Only later on in its career did Bathory release something thrash. Celtic Frost also not really thrash, although closer to thrash than Bathory and Venom.

Written by Marcel Hubregtse on 11.02.2014 at 15:45

Venom are not and have never been thrash. They have been an influence on it, but have never been it. That would be like saying Motörhead were thrash. Early Bathory also not thrash, damn that band band started out as a Venom copy band. Only later on in its career did Bathory release something thrash. Celtic Frost also not really thrash, although closer to thrash than Bathory and Venom.

Why does Venom's page on here list them as blackened thrash then? Obviously someone just not knowing what they're talking about? Also, what do you call this if not blackened thrash? Also, Bathory were certainly not Venom copycats. Venom never utilized the lo fi production or shrieked vocals that Quorthon immediately made his trademark from the debut. The first three Bathory albums sound nothing like the first three Venom ones.

Written by Auntie Sahar on 11.02.2014 at 16:03


Why does Venom's page on here list them as blackened thrash then? Obviously someone just not knowing what they're talking about? Also, what do you call this if not blackened thrash? Also, Bathory were certainly not Venom copycats. Venom never utilized the lo fi production or shrieked vocals that Quorthon immediately made his trademark from the debut. The first three Bathory albums sound nothing like the first three Venom ones.

Check out the first two tracks Bathory ever released on the Scandinavian Metal Attack compilation, I would even call it pure Venom rip-off.

No frigging idea why and who labelled Venom blackened thrash here on MS, probably someone who really doesn;'t have a frigging clue.

War I would call blackened punk, the riffing isn't thrash at all. And you can clearly hear Bathory copying Venom on there as well. Venom's prodduction was lof fi as well just not as shrill as Bathory's. Only difference being the vocals between the shrieks employed by Bathory and the vocals by Venom. When Bathory released the first album Quorthon even said Venom were a huge inspiration. Later on he went on to say he had never even ehard Venom. Which of course was utter and total bs.

Marcel I think it's safe to say you're the only person I've ever seen get so agitated at the thought of Venom being referred to as thrash.

Because they aren't thrash (those early albums). Like I said it's as ludicrous as calling Motörhead thrash.

Written by Marcel Hubregtse on 11.02.2014 at 16:20

War I would call blackened punk, the riffing isn't thrash at all.

Thrash has always had a heavy hardcore influence

Venom is more blackened speed metal than blackened thrash. Though people don't know the difference between speed and thrash most of the time so I really don't give a fuck.

Written by Auntie Sahar on 11.02.2014 at 18:59

Written by Marcel Hubregtse on 11.02.2014 at 16:20

War I would call blackened punk, the riffing isn't thrash at all.

Thrash has always had a heavy hardcore influence

thrash had a bit of hardcore punk influence not the sort of older punk Venom and also Mtörhead draw from. Thrash's influence was mostly nwobhm in the style of Maiden, Angel Witch, Satan, Blitzkrieg, Diamond Head, Judas Priest that sort of NWOBHM.

Written by Bad English on 10.02.2014 at 23:32
Maybe most interesting think in forums I have read long long time
Good pion but I disgaree, I would say BM is age between 16-30 period to be true as old BM was, its men's and sometimes women's age in this case, and same time some bands still can come out , but somehow you're wright sometimes in MA I see new bands what has balls and are good but some are just shadows and BM is guitar sound, atmosfere, lyrics not only satanism,
East has to rebel aganst, islamic bulshit, Europe just lost needs to this, we have super democracy (even how pathetic it sounds) we dont need protest, but soon, wait when our life standarts will colapse and then it might reborn
East has to rebel aganst and it can work there, since metal as rebel form lost its meaning generally in society

I'm sorry, I'm trying to understand. Are you saying that BM is age specific, or are you extending the boundary that I suggested? Since what I was stating is the fact that true BM existed for only 10-15 years, so by mid 90-ies it was truly dead, and we only had some groups trying to keep it going to no point and purpose.
BM, true BM is a generational thing. I mean, I can listen to Bathory, and it is good, but I will never know how important it is or was, since I was not old enough to appreciate it and grasp it, if that makes sense to you.

I hope you are right, because things are really going bad, and the 'democracy' is a shot in the foot for all of us. It is one thing to be understanding of anothers culture, but completely asinine to allow for someone who hates you to flourish in your country. I hope I see that soon, that rebellion

It can work there, however, they are risking their lives by doing that music, while the North BM scene only risked imprisoment, that is what I say, that if we want to talk about true BM, it is ironically the one who came last.

Quote:
Again agree with you. I respect most religions, and also think is kind of stupid to write lyrics mocking those believers who are trying to sit on their corner and do their cults without bothering the others. However this doesn't apply for Islam. I don't know much about it, but for what I've heard it's indeed dangerous for society. So I support anti-islamic bands.

Well, It's hard to say what the "essential" element is or was. I mean, many bands placed corpspaint because they were copying each other, very few seldom asked what it means or what it stands for. Immortal even went as far as to say that their corpsepaint was inspired by KISS, and Immortal really never gave a fuck about anything. Don't get me wrong, they have good albums, but just like Dimmu, they were followers, not leaders, they just did what was hip and "popular" at that time. The ones who took the scene seriously are in prison, dead or they are released or about to get released. I remember thinking back in the day how the BM musicians were on top of the pack, meaning, they had the answers, they had some esoteric wisdom (if you read some of the lyrics), but then you find that you have band like Dimmu, who while having written great lyrics, did not extraordinary but spending a lot of time with a thesaurus and a dictionary.

I don't know. That is why I in part believe that the whole package needs to be there, or modified enough not to change the recipe but still sound new. Or maybe that in fact there is no recipe, because as you remember, BM was initially not a cookie cutter music, there was no formula, only later did that come to be as a mainstay.

Islam, my friend, is a true evil. I spent a great deal of research on it, and I can tell you, if Islam wins, this forum, our music, our way of life will be gone forever. That is what I say that I support Anti-Islam bands, not because they are offensive in nature, but because they alert us, and bring awareness to the rising problem.

Rasputin - people age rest I will ansver in evening to much to read

Written by deadone on 12.02.2014 at 00:45



I always viewed them as part of NWOBHM which in itself was pretty vast in terms of sound. I'm sure Marcel will put me into line though!

Venom were certainly part of NWOBHM since it was a timeframe and not a specific sound. Just look at all the bands which were considered nwobhm (and NO Motörhead and Judas Priest were not part of that. Both did release an album during the heydays of NWOBHM but both already had released loads of stuff prior to it.) IN terms of sound NOWBHM was indeed immensely vast ranging from almost glam like stuff to Venom and anything in between.

Eeven though Lars Ulrich is still the biggest moron around he did compile the best ever NWOBHM compilation album. Just look at the bands and tracklisting to see it wasn't a specific sort of sound:

Disc One[edit]
1."It's Electric" - Diamond Head
2."Eye of the Storm" - Sweet Savage
3."Motorcycle Man" - Saxon
4."Cheetah" - White Spirit
5."Don't Need Your Money" - Raven
6."White Lightning" - Paralex
7."Getcha Rocks Off" - Def Leppard
8."Set the Stage Alight" - Weapon
9."Vice Versa" - Samson
10."Fight with the Devil" - Hollow Ground
11."Demolition Boys" - Girlschool
12."Leaving Nadir" - Witchfynde

Disc Two[edit]
1."Sanctuary" - Iron Maiden
2."Back Street Woman" - Jaguar
3."Killers" - Tygers of Pan Tang
4."I'm No Fool" - Gaskin
5."Sledgehammer" - Sledgehammer
6."Angel Dust" - Venom
7."Extermination Day" - Angel Witch
8."One of These Days" - Trespass
9."Death or Glory" - Holocaust
10."If I Were King" - Vardis
11."Blitzkrieg" - Blitzkrieg
12."Helpless" - Diamond Head
13."Ambitions" - Dragster
14."Treason" - A II Z
15."Witchfinder General" - Witchfinder General
16."Red Lights" - Black Axe
17."S.S. Giro" - Fist
18."Captured City" - Praying Mantis

Written by deadone on 12.02.2014 at 00:55

Sex Pistols were raw but they were also somewhat a gimmick at the time that ended up having a huge influence on metal.

Even though I like the Seks Pistols I Always call them a Boyband because they didn;t form as a natural band and Malcolm MacLaren just put the band together seeking out different characters. Sid Vicious couldn't play the bass to save his life. In the studio other people recorded the bass parts.