From what I understand first wave black metal was less of a uniform genre and more of a loose collection of bands who shared similar aesthetics and lyrical themes. They played everything from trad heavy metal (Mercyful Fate) to speed metal (Bulldozer) to thrash metal (early Sodom and some Hellhammer/Celtic Frost) to what we would now consider straight black metal (pre-Hammerheart Bathory and some Hellhammer/Celtic Frost). The second wave of black metal differed from the first wave in that it established black metal as a unique genre that was largely derived from the work of Bathory and Celtic Frost. (Well the Norwegian bands at least. Swedish black metal was more thrash based while Greek black metal was more rooted in the trad metal of Mercyful Fate.) From the early 1990's forward lyrics didn't matter that much in determining what was black metal because it now had a set of musical characteristics that set it apart from other metal genres. Especially death metal. In the 1980's everything with Satanic and occult lyrics was called black metal (Peace Sells and early Running Wild was called black metal back then for example) while afterwards only music that sounded like Darkthrone, Immortal, Emperor, Dimmu Borgir and Gorgoroth would be called black metal.

Written by deadone on 12.02.2014 at 01:17

From memory, didn't Malcolm McLaren form the band to help promote his sex shop?

His clothing shop/boutique it as

Quote:

Sid Vicious will go down as the biggest waste of space in musical history.

Indeed it was. But I love his singing in the cover of Frank Sinatra's My Way


Oops better get on-topic, since we're now veering way too much away.

@ demented_rocker - I agree about syles and new bands but there are 3 style sin BM, and black doom is doom supgenre not black
There are BM , melo bm and atmo, otehrs are more mixture between styles and black ened, is more speed, heavy, thrash(y) Marcel will critize me, probobly)

@Apothecary - about melo, well you should remeber atmo and melo born between 2000 , remeber classoc examples as Emperor and Dimmu, even CoF in wery old days early 90's and I many bands in mid 90's played melo or atmo BM
And Venom -- what did they created, one album, ep its all, never like it, they are poswers, Celtic Frost was best in that genre, and Chech masters hammer (if I remeber bands sound propherly)
even blackened Bathory was ''shit''

Rasputin - BM philosphy, rejecting all, rejectin afterlife's idea, being athesitic, (satanistic) how meny years you have left, 16, then cimes 20, 25 and then 27 you're ''old'' and soon you be dead , so
men in such age in BM scene even classic norvegian, bathory, what so ever, those pioneers and ''real'' bands how old were they when they created best music, same goes for Satyricon ....
all members say ''we were teenagers back then''

Written by Guest on 12.02.2014 at 01:23

(Peace Sells and early Running Wild was called black metal back then for example)

NO they weren't called black metal back in the day. Peace Sells was called thrash metal and Running Wild speed metal.

Written by deadone on 12.02.2014 at 01:33


I love that song too. Film clip was better than most clips today as well.

A bit more off-topicness. Love where Sid gets out the gun and starts shooting.


On-topic I am sure a couple of Frank Sinatra tunes can be blackified. Megadeth thrashified a Nancy Sinatra tune so why not blackifiy a Frank tune.

Written by Bad English on 12.02.2014 at 01:28

@ demented_rocker - I agree about syles and new bands but there are 3 style sin BM, and black doom is doom supgenre not black
There are BM , melo bm and atmo, otehrs are more mixture between styles and black ened, is more speed, heavy, thrash(y) Marcel will critize me, probobly)

@Apothecary - about melo, well you should remeber atmo and melo born between 2000 , remeber classoc examples as Emperor and Dimmu, even CoF in wery old days early 90's and I many bands in mid 90's played melo or atmo BM
And Venom -- what did they created, one album, ep its all, never like it, they are poswers, Celtic Frost was best in that genre, and Chech masters hammer (if I remeber bands sound propherly)
even blackened Bathory was ''shit''

Rasputin - BM philosphy, rejecting all, rejectin afterlife's idea, being athesitic, (satanistic) how meny years you have left, 16, then cimes 20, 25 and then 27 you're ''old'' and soon you be dead , so
men in such age in BM scene even classic norvegian, bathory, what so ever, those pioneers and ''real'' bands how old were they when they created best music, same goes for Satyricon ....
all members say ''we were teenagers back then''

Well yeah, you are right, they were young, some of the best stuff you do is when you are young, because you are exploring stuff, when you get old, you are set in your ways. But you see, I think it is irrelevant right now how old someone is, BM is a generational thing of an age where you traded tapes, where a PC was still on the horizon and not a part of everyday life, of a time where Underground could truly be called that, a time when Xtianity held its sway over most things, and people were scared of "Satan," now, all those things are gone. I mean, the changes are drastic, just think about what a horror film was back then, and what it is now. I think we became more accustomed to such things, so now you watch the bloodiest film and it is nothing. That is why I keep saying and asking where is the relevance of this music today, or for that matter any Metal "genre?" It is not there. Look at the American scene, it is filled with people who don't want to play their instruments and want to reduce their music to "low brow" mentality of getting drunk as a skunk or getting high or getting into fights. If there was any wisdom, any intelligence or reason in our music, it is surely gone now. The same goes for BM, what once was is gone, and to try and perpetuate the same old thing is not only counterproductive, but it is extremely stupid. I read the magazines and some bands brag about how much their music is "Christ crushing" Metal, or "Extremely Offensive" like anyone really finds that edgy and cool anymore. I will be laughing 20 years from now, when I still see people in corpsepaint and shit, trying to make it "KVLT" and "real." I don't know, the other problem with our music are the people within the scenes. Internet made the music so readily available that we have an influx of some fucked up individuals with low IQ's and inferiority complex who want to pick fights and get high. The last concert I have been too was Megadeth, and I just surveyed the scene, I had a guy convincing me that Shadowsfall was the best band on the planet, no one can top them, and also Fear Factory was "heavy as all fuck" and I kept looking at him and in the back of my mind realizing that we will see more and more of that shit, regardless of the scene, and regardless of the band we come to see, so, if the band is not the problem, the other increasing problem is the fan base. The more stupid shit I see, the more I want to cut my hair, because I am becoming ashamed of the music I once was proud of representing, and that is not good.

Written by Marcel Hubregtse on 12.02.2014 at 01:02

Written by deadone on 12.02.2014 at 00:55

Sid Vicious couldn't play the bass to save his life. In the studio other people recorded the bass parts.

Glen Matlock played on Anarchy (and any other recordings made while he was still in the band). After Sid replaced him, Steve Jones did all the bass parts, except for bodies, which Sid actually did play (although buried in the mix).

Http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=61UcZIamYtE

Written by Rasputin on 12.02.2014 at 03:05


Well yeah, you are right, they were young, some of the best stuff you do is when you are young, because you are exploring stuff, when you get old, you are set in your ways. But you see, I think it is irrelevant right now how old someone is, BM is a generational thing of an age where you traded tapes, where a PC was still on the horizon and not a part of everyday life, of a time where Underground could truly be called that, a time when Xtianity held its sway over most things, and people were scared of "Satan," now, all those things are gone. I mean, the changes are drastic, just think about what a horror film was back then, and what it is now. I think we became more accustomed to such things, so now you watch the bloodiest film and it is nothing. That is why I keep saying and asking where is the relevance of this music today, or for that matter any Metal "genre?" It is not there. Look at the American scene, it is filled with people who don't want to play their instruments and want to reduce their music to "low brow" mentality of getting drunk as a skunk or getting high or getting into fights. If there was any wisdom, any intelligence or reason in our music, it is surely gone now. The same goes for BM, what once was is gone, and to try and perpetuate the same old thing is not only counterproductive, but it is extremely stupid. I read the magazines and some bands brag about how much their music is "Christ crushing" Metal, or "Extremely Offensive" like anyone really finds that edgy and cool anymore. I will be laughing 20 years from now, when I still see people in corpsepaint and shit, trying to make it "KVLT" and "real." I don't know, the other problem with our music are the people within the scenes. Internet made the music so readily available that we have an influx of some fucked up individuals with low IQ's and inferiority complex who want to pick fights and get high. The last concert I have been too was Megadeth, and I just surveyed the scene, I had a guy convincing me that Shadowsfall was the best band on the planet, no one can top them, and also Fear Factory was "heavy as all fuck" and I kept looking at him and in the back of my mind realizing that we will see more and more of that shit, regardless of the scene, and regardless of the band we come to see, so, if the band is not the problem, the other increasing problem is the fan base. The more stupid shit I see, the more I want to cut my hair, because I am becoming ashamed of the music I once was proud of representing, and that is not good.

Internet killsl 90's tape traidng, harder to share idea, it staye din less people circle and harder it spread aout, today .... well MS this forum, spreads a lot of ideas so

Written by Rasputin on 12.02.2014 at 03:05

The more stupid shit I see, the more I want to cut my hair, because I am becoming ashamed of the music I once was proud of representing, and that is not good.

Metal will always have issues with its increasingly stupid fanbase and their neanderthalic tendencies. Just look at the early thrash scene and the black metal scene, which thankfully is just about over with the rise of metal sharing over the internet. I cut my own hair (metaphorically speaking) a long time ago, and stopped associating myself with the metal scene save this site and started caring more about the music and less about the fanbase mentality, which is something I should've done a long time ago.

Written by Bad English on 14.02.2014 at 20:07

Internet killsl 90's tape traidng,

...To which I say good fucking riddance.

Written by Guest on 14.02.2014 at 22:52

Written by Rasputin on 12.02.2014 at 03:05

The more stupid shit I see, the more I want to cut my hair, because I am becoming ashamed of the music I once was proud of representing, and that is not good.

Metal will always have issues with its increasingly stupid fanbase and their neanderthalic tendencies. Just look at the early thrash scene and the black metal scene, which thankfully is just about over with the rise of metal sharing over the internet. I cut my own hair (metaphorically speaking) a long time ago, and stopped associating myself with the metal scene save this site and started caring more about the music and less about the fanbase mentality, which is something I should've done a long time ago.

Written by Bad English on 14.02.2014 at 20:07

Internet killsl 90's tape traidng,

...To which I say good fucking riddance.

I understand what you are saying, I just think the problem is withing the artists themselves, a lot of them have no idea what their music is about, and what it should be. Maybe I am looking for meaning where there is none, but I always hoped that our bands were above the typical pop bullshit, and that these people have a good head on their shoulders, now, as the time passes I see how wrong I was. How do you pull it off then when you go to concert? I mean, if you are there you are not alone, and I imagine your friends must still be separate from you, and want to be the part of it, or am I wrong?
So tell me, what music do you care about, honestly, what bands, what makes you care about the music, is it the image, the guitar work, the lyrics or just the whole package, since I keep finding myself getting away from all scenes, and picking a band here and there, and listening to that, and some of it is not even metal.

@Bad English
I see what you are saying, but the availability of information does not constitute better quality, in fact, I think it makes it more watered down. For instance, take a glimpse at our culture, it is hyper society that stares at their smart phones and has an attention span of a goldfish, I don't expect any greatness. I just think, that back in the day, people did a lot of research by reading the books, actually taking the time to understand something, now it is very superficial. And when I was saying stuff about the internet, I was thinking more about the fact that because we are all "plugged in" it is hard to have an Underground scene.

I actually prefer modern black metal over the stuff from the 90's. To me the 90's Norwegian scene is kinda overrated and I prefer the modern American and French scenes. But to answer you're question, black metal is much more diverse these days. You have shoegazy stuff like Deafheaven, atmospheric stuff like Wolves in the Throne Room, experimental stuff like Blut aus Nord, progressive stuff like Krallice, war metal like Revenge, and even bands that fuse bm with hardcore like Kvelertak. It's pretty much and umbrella term these days. and yes I'm new here

Written by AtDawnTheySquee on 21.02.2014 at 10:02

I actually prefer modern black metal over the stuff from the 90's. To me the 90's Norwegian scene is kinda overrated and I prefer the modern American and French scenes. But to answer you're question, black metal is much more diverse these days. You have shoegazy stuff like Deafheaven, atmospheric stuff like Wolves in the Throne Room, experimental stuff like Blut aus Nord, progressive stuff like Krallice, war metal like Revenge, and even bands that fuse bm with hardcore like Kvelertak. It's pretty much and umbrella term these days. and yes I'm new here

I agree those are overated, but same time good, I suggest you look about same generation , maybe 2-3 years newer bands from Germany, Slavic lands, France, USA and so on

Written by Bad English on 21.02.2014 at 19:58

Written by AtDawnTheySquee on 21.02.2014 at 10:02

I actually prefer modern black metal over the stuff from the 90's. To me the 90's Norwegian scene is kinda overrated and I prefer the modern American and French scenes. But to answer you're question, black metal is much more diverse these days. You have shoegazy stuff like Deafheaven, atmospheric stuff like Wolves in the Throne Room, experimental stuff like Blut aus Nord, progressive stuff like Krallice, war metal like Revenge, and even bands that fuse bm with hardcore like Kvelertak. It's pretty much and umbrella term these days. and yes I'm new here

I agree those are overated, but same time good, I suggest you look about same generation , maybe 2-3 years newer bands from Germany, Slavic lands, France, USA and so on

I'd take the 00's Finnish scene over 90's Norway any day. Oh here's a great band from the Czech Republic.

^Link doesn't work. When you do [ youtube ] [/ youtube] stuff you must fill in with just the characters that come after the /watch?v= (this is, after the = symbol, on the youtube url)

Written by Karlabos on 22.02.2014 at 04:09

^Link doesn't work. When you do [ youtube ] [/ youtube] stuff you must fill in with just the characters that come after the /watch?v= (this is, after the = symbol, on the youtube url)

I just figured it out right now, I put the URL that's why it didn't show up. Oh yay another anime fan. c:

Written by AtDawnTheySquee on 22.02.2014 at 04:03


I'd take the 00's Finnish scene over 90's Norway any day. Oh here's a great band from the Czech Republic.

i'v seen that band around, i don't understand how you would say or type there name......oh i see you just type "blackstipe" or "nic" or "WEDONTHAVEANAME"

Not bad!

Written by AtDawnTheySquee on 22.02.2014 at 04:13

Oh yay another anime fan. c:

is that what it is, i thought you guys were into little girls

Written by Guest on 22.02.2014 at 06:43

is that what it is, i thought you guys were into little girls

l-l-lewd :l
But anyways it's "black strip". It's black metal with post-hardcore influences.

Written by Guest on 22.02.2014 at 06:43

Written by AtDawnTheySquee on 22.02.2014 at 04:13

Oh yay another anime fan. c:

is that what it is, i thought you guys were into little girls

Why not both? ^^

Written by Karlabos on 22.02.2014 at 17:29

Written by Guest on 22.02.2014 at 06:43

Written by AtDawnTheySquee on 22.02.2014 at 04:13

Oh yay another anime fan. c:

is that what it is, i thought you guys were into little girls

Why not both? ^^

Do you like lolis? :3

If you want to talk about anime and lolis, do so in a thread that isn't supposed to be about the current state of black metal.

Yeah, and since we're gonna go back to topic I think it's a good opportunity to make an observation:
I mean, everyone talked here how they prefer the so called third wave of bm over the first and second ones, ones also stated the complete opposite and enhanced their points with examples and stuff, and don't take me wrong, it was fun and all, so fun that enjoyed reading to the point that I was postponing this, but it seems you guys forgot the main question of the thread which was the one I wanted to know the most and the one that motivated me to create the thread in first place, hehe:

Written by Karlabos on 09.02.2014 at 20:06

So... What is sufficient to categorize a band as "Black Metal" nowadays? For instance would you guys consider bands like "Botanist" or "Circle of Ouroboros" black metal?
What are your opinions?

More precisely: There are black metal bands with clean vocals. There are black metal bandss without guitars. There are bands considered black metal which are almost dark ambient. But all these bands need "something in common" to be all thrown in the same plastic bag called "black metal", right?
And if this plastic bag isn't anymore about satanism and grimness, then on what it consists nowadays? Is there a solid definition? Or do people decide by their own: Oh, this band can be categorized as black metal, this one doesn't... And so on?

What do you guys think?

Written by Karlabos on 22.02.2014 at 23:42


What do you guys think?

basically the high pitched screams and fast drum beats (at least in some parts of the music) and so on from the first and second wave black metal are still kind of a set base arn't they.

Well Lifelover aren't active anymore because they guy died sadly, but they had post-punk influences and even poppy elements in their music.

Written by AtDawnTheySquee on 23.02.2014 at 00:01

Well Lifelover aren't active anymore because they guy died sadly, but they had post-punk influences and even poppy elements in their music.

....so

Written by Guest on 23.02.2014 at 00:13

Written by AtDawnTheySquee on 23.02.2014 at 00:01

Well Lifelover aren't active anymore because they guy died sadly, but they had post-punk influences and even poppy elements in their music.

....so

You can have a black metal with plenty of outside influences, and without corpse paint.

Written by AtDawnTheySquee on 23.02.2014 at 00:15


You can have a black metal with plenty of outside influences, and without corpse paint.

yeah what i am saying is there is the base "sound" not theme of black metal and then all these other things "influences" added to make a black metal band today. Then there's bands like lifelover that are a different genre (like post rock) but have small bits of black metal elements.....kind of how it seems to me anyway

It's interesting that you don't consider Lifelover black metal with post-punk influences, but rather the other way around.

And on higher pitched screams being part of the "black metal base", there are some bands which use growls too.
An extreme example would be Blood Of Kingu, which is considered black metal, and until today I sometimes don't understand why.

Written by Karlabos on 23.02.2014 at 00:41

It's interesting that you don't consider Lifelover black metal with post-punk influences, but rather the other way around.

either way, was just using as an example.
to be honest i haven't been in to the scene as long as most so wouldn't take my opinion too seriously