Ok, this isn't meant to be a discussion on the band in general but feel free to post your opinion on them if you want. I'm mainly thinking of the influence of Discharge on first wave black metal. What do you think? Think of other extreme metal bands in the '80s.

And is it just to do with the thrashy BM/first wave? What about ildjarn and similar bands, for example? And did the emotion-over-technical-ability lay the foundations for most BM bands?

Sorry if this is badly worded. Someone mentioned that they thought Discharge influenced early BM to me and I'd never really thought about it before apart from the similarity between discharge and Ildjarn. So yeah, if it's badly worded I'm sorry but I am tvery tired as well.

Hmmmm...

I think they are definitely an influence on bands such as Hellhammer, but maybe not so much as on bands like Bathory. But an influence on Ildjarn? Definitely.

Written by mankvill on 09.12.2007 at 05:33

Hmmmm...

I think they are definitely an influence on bands such as Hellhammer, but maybe not so much as on bands like Bathory. But an influence on Ildjarn? Definitely.

I would say that a band such as Discharge is very big influence on a band such as Bathory (maybe not knowingly for Bathory) since Bathory started off as a Venom clone (but even worse than Venom) more or less and Discharge was a big influence on Venom IMO.

Sorry if there was no MA I ont know band and how tahy can be influenced, Marcel are write Venom, Bathory, King Diamond are mor einfluenced how thay, thay seems be forgotten

Written by Marcel Hubregtse on 09.12.2007 at 10:25

Written by mankvill on 09.12.2007 at 05:33

Hmmmm...

I think they are definitely an influence on bands such as Hellhammer, but maybe not so much as on bands like Bathory. But an influence on Ildjarn? Definitely.

I would say that a band such as Discharge is very big influence on a band such as Bathory (maybe not knowingly for Bathory) since Bathory started off as a Venom clone (but even worse than Venom) more or less and Discharge was a big influence on Venom IMO.

Yeah, that's true. Maybe Discharge is an indirect influence on Bathory?

Written by Bad English on 09.12.2007 at 10:30

Sorry if there was no MA I ont know band and how tahy can be influenced, Marcel are write Venom, Bathory, King Diamond are mor einfluenced how thay, thay seems be forgotten

Discharge is one of the first (Maybe THE first) crust punk band.

Written by Bad English on 09.12.2007 at 10:30

Sorry if there was no MA I ont know band and how tahy can be influenced, Marcel are write Venom, Bathory, King Diamond are mor einfluenced how thay, thay seems be forgotten

so if you see a band on MA you immediately know them?
ps, here they are

Written by Damnated on 09.12.2007 at 23:26

Written by Bad English on 09.12.2007 at 10:30

Sorry if there was no MA I ont know band and how tahy can be influenced, Marcel are write Venom, Bathory, King Diamond are mor einfluenced how thay, thay seems be forgotten

so if you see a band on MA you immediately know them?
ps, here they are

I look to them and I had seen them in past in MA and lil try find sounds but whitout help pf MA Id dint know them, when you open tread I look in MA and recognise band, but still I dunno much about them , like Bathort, Venom

Quorthon himself has said Discharge and GBH were influences on the early Bathory material.

They probably influenced that stupidly called "first wave of black metal", I mean Venom or early Bathory that are thrash and no more than thrash (being thrash obviously influenced by hardcore punk), but that doesn't mean that black metal as we know it today got any influence from Discharge... if A influences B and B influences C, we can't say that necessarily A influenced C.

I dont know how the first wave would be the one which is "stupidly" called as such. Venom, Sodom and others were using the tag of black metal before the modern form of the genre came in to being.

The point is that if we want to call "black metal" what Venom played, then we should change the name of what we know as black metal, or just make it clear that they're just two completely differnet genres that curiously received the same name.

Discharge were probably an influence for Venom snd the first Bathory, they were obviously not an influence for Burzum

It's called the first wave of black metal because it helped shape what real black metal is.

Written by Guest on 10.12.2007 at 03:29

They probably influenced that stupidly called "first wave of black metal", I mean Venom or early Bathory that are thrash and no more than thrash (being thrash obviously influenced by hardcore punk), but that doesn't mean that black metal as we know it today got any influence from Discharge... if A influences B and B influences C, we can't say that necessarily A influenced C.

What about Discharge' influence on bands that are nearer to what would typically be called black metal? Sarcofago, Ildjarn, Darkthrone and Von come to mind.

Black metal as we know it today isn't always directly influenced by bathory but that doesn't mean they weren't important so could Discharge be considered important?

Written by -tom- on 10.12.2007 at 14:37

Written by Guest on 10.12.2007 at 03:29

They probably influenced that stupidly called "first wave of black metal", I mean Venom or early Bathory that are thrash and no more than thrash (being thrash obviously influenced by hardcore punk), but that doesn't mean that black metal as we know it today got any influence from Discharge... if A influences B and B influences C, we can't say that necessarily A influenced C.

What about Discharge' influence on bands that are nearer to what would typically be called black metal? Sarcofago, Ildjarn, Darkthrone and Von come to mind.

Black metal as we know it today isn't always directly influenced by bathory but that doesn't mean they weren't important so could Discharge be considered important?

I think the idea of the topic had changed a bit during the discussion... the title asks if Discharge could be considered the ROOTS of black metal, and there's where I say no. Different bands can sound similar, almost alike, and still not be part of the same process... if Discharge were a group of guys that didn't know how to play an instrument but still had the will to make something harsh, heavy and angry, and the guys from Sarcofago played even worse but wanted to make something harsh, heavy and evil the results will be pretty similar. Probably Discharge were important influencing the early black metal bands, that could be and could not, I only refuse to accept the idea exposed in the title of the thread that could lead to think something as "there's not black metal without Discharge".

On the other hand, where the first Discharge demo (1977) that influencial, considering that when they released their second one Venom were already recording Welcome To Hell?

I disagree! I think black metal started (wasn't fully developed into a genre or anything, just started) with Discharge.

Written by mankvill on 10.12.2007 at 20:20

I disagree! I think black metal started (wasn't fully developed into a genre or anything, just started) with Discharge.

Interesting... then, according to your theory, the whole black metal scene was triggered by an independent demo released by Discharge in the laye 70s, and that Venom's reason to exist was that demo. I still think that black metal came even after Venom but...

EDIT: I'm not denying the theory, it just seems to me untrustfully at first sight... I'm open to demostration, as I hadn't listened to the first Discharge demo (which was the only pre-Venom one), and I don't really know about the influence it had in the beginning of black metal, so it can be considered as the root of the genre.

Written by Guest on 10.12.2007 at 20:56

Written by mankvill on 10.12.2007 at 20:20

I disagree! I think black metal started (wasn't fully developed into a genre or anything, just started) with Discharge.

Interesting... then, according to your theory, the whole black metal scene was triggered by an independent demo released by Discharge in the laye 70s, and that Venom's reason to exist was that demo. I still think that black metal came even after Venom but...

EDIT: I'm not denying the theory, it just seems to me untrustfully at first sight... I'm open to demostration, as I hadn't listened to the first Discharge demo (which was the only pre-Venom one), and I don't really know about the influence it had in the beginning of black metal, so it can be considered as the root of the genre.

Of course one little demo by Discharge didn't create black metal. I'm not saying that. I'm just saying Discharge was the beginning of metal music becoming black metal. And yes, Venom undoubtedly is influential to black metal, but who's saying that Discharge post-Venom still wasn't influential?

Von released their demo back in 1992, but people seeing that as extremely influential to the black metal scene!

No one said it all leads back to just one band and just one release.

If you read the first post i never suggested that at all. I said that i think they were very influential. Saying they were the "roots of black metal" isn't that absurd really if you consider that the only band from the very early '80s considered black metal is venom and I'd say Discharge was more influential. Just my view of it anyway. Compare 'Hear Nothing..' to Bathory's debut for a start.

Written by Guest on 10.12.2007 at 17:08
On the other hand, where the first Discharge demo (1977) that influencial, considering that when they released their second one Venom were already recording Welcome To Hell?

I don't think Venom were influenced by punk much at all, certainly the Discharge demo is rarely if ever cited by bands (moreso their 1980-81 material).

Venom tend to talk about Van Halen, The Tubes, The Who, Rolling Stones and Kiss in terms of attitude and image. For musical influence you hear Judas Priest and Black Sabbath for metal and Motorhead and Sex Pistols from the rock/punk side. Discharge I don't hear them mention and I don't hear in their sound.

For Hellhammer I've never heard punk mentioned explicitly, they were more into the NWOBHM scene (Angel Witch, Diamond Head, etc.) along with Sabbath and Deep Purple, any punk influence they probably got second hand through Venom and Motorhead (ie Sex Pistols, not so much the whole Discharge scene).

Obviously Mercyful Fate is right out of the running, not really any punk influence to mention let alone Discharge.

So that leaves us with Bathory for the first of the first wave bands. He claimed no musical influence from Venom (and I tend to believe him), but as mentioned before does cite GBH along with Disorder, The Exploited and Riot/Clone - and clearly there we can find the a pretty significant indirect Discharge influence even if he never listened to them extensively himself. Throw in Motorhead and Sex Pistols and Bathory is surely the most heavily influenced by punk of the first wave.

Discharge though? Not really, Sex Pistols show up more often in the first wave bands and I wouldn't call them the "roots" of black metal.

Beyond these there have been plenty of bands to come later, however. The Meads Of Asphodel come to mind.

never listen to discharge ... i'll try .
for the roots of bm , bleh that's the question .
i think the first bands , aren't the norvegian wave . i think the first band who influenced or play bm where from south america Sarcofago (1985) and Sepultura ( 1984) , from north america , Von (1989) and Blasphemy (1984) , from asia Sabbat (1983) and from europa Venom (1979) and Bathory (1983) of course .

Written by -tom- on 11.12.2007 at 02:50

No one said it all leads back to just one band and just one release.

If you read the first post i never suggested that at all. I said that i think they were very influential. Saying they were the "roots of black metal" isn't that absurd really if you consider that the only band from the very early '80s considered black metal is venom and I'd say Discharge was more influential. Just my view of it anyway. Compare 'Hear Nothing..' to Bathory's debut for a start.

I hadn't listened to Bathory's first album for years, I had only considered it a wasted piece of underdeveloped thrash that wasn't really important for black metal.

Anyway, this thread is very interesting it actually made me ask for questions that I never made before... I still don't consider that Discharge were important for the development of the genre, but I'll keep an eye on this discussion to see what people has to say.

Again, read the Bathory biography. Cant be buggered to link it, but I reckon its on Bathory.se or the black mark website. Quorthon specifically mentions Discharge and GBH as influence over the likes of Venom. I would be more comfortable saying Discharge were an important band in the roots of extreme rock oriented music in general, rather than just black metal.

that still doesn't explaine the whole Discharge phenomenon in black metal... to let us focus more in the theme... do you think that if Discharge never existed, black metal would be the same??? I think it would be exactly the same.

On the other hand, I recognize myself as totally dumb in harcore punk, so I would like to know if Discharge were actually that original in what they made or if they took DIRECT influence from other band.

I think that you could argue that without Discharge you wouldn't have Bathory, and taking away Bathory would have a pretty huge impact on the development of Black metal. But then you still have Venom, Hellhammer and Mercyful Fate so maybe the difference wouldn't be massive.

It would be a bigger deal in thrash metal, you could definitely argue that without Discharge's impact on punk thrash metal might not have existed, rather it would have developed out of Venom, Motorhead and NWOBHM without having punk's musical and political edge.

Written by Anton Alcolust on 11.12.2007 at 04:18
Sarcofago (1985) and Sepultura ( 1984) , Von (1989) and Blasphemy (1984) , Sabbat (1983)

Here you're already talking about second generation black metal bands - do we know anything of these bands being influenced directly by punk, specifically Discharge?

Lemme try something!

Could it be possible that first wave of black metal is influenced by all types of things, but second wave bands have Discharge as inspiration, even though many first wave bands didn't?

Well, it is obvious that the second wave of black metal didn't take their influence only from the first one, but the black metal bands that sounded more similar to Discharge belong to the first wave, especially Bathory and Hellhammer. I'm open to believe that Discharge could had been important in shaping black metal (although I don't think so now), but their influence on the second wave would be minimal.

But I think bands like Ildjarn and Darkthrone definitely have Discharge's sound in them.

Written by Zombie, M.D. on 11.12.2007 at 05:52

Again, read the Bathory biography. Cant be buggered to link it, but I reckon its on Bathory.se or the black mark website. Quorthon specifically mentions Discharge and GBH as influence over the likes of Venom. I would be more comfortable saying Discharge were an important band in the roots of extreme rock oriented music in general, rather than just black metal.

Sorry if I didn't read well your post before replying last night. I should write 100 times "I will not post in metalstorm while I'm drunk"

to put my ideas in order, I think it's important to differenciate the "influence" of some band in the formation of some genre, and other very different thing is to be part of the same process. The thread's title doesn't necessarily says that black metal was born upon the shoulders of Discharge, but it obviously asks if Discharge can be considered as part of the genre's evolution, and it's HERE where I say no.

The question wether A was influenced by B is somehow useless, but it's important to see if A is a logical continuation of B. Bathory could had taken some elements from Discharge, but that doesn't necessarily mean that Discharge forms part of Bathory as both bands certainly don't follow the same musical and aesthetic line, but they run paralelly. We can't say the same of, for example, Motorhead, because they DO form part of the same process over which black metal developed.