Written by Candlemass on 24.04.2015 at 03:31

As far as mainstream history is concerned Western culture starts in ancient Mesopotamia (Iraq), not Homer. I'm not sure how the Germanic, Spanish, Francs or Jews can be simply labeled as having the "same Western perspective" nor the religious differences and ideological within it (fascist or communist). Indeed many "outside" cultures (Arabic, Indian) have contributed to what we call "Western culture" today to a degree that your use of 'Eurocentric' is indeed Eurocentric but in an ironic way. As far as I'm concerned having a different 'perspective' is about as trivial as it gets and does not start nor stop at "West", "East" or what have you muddled categories.
I would have said 'humancentric' but even that is incorrect. I communicate just fine with my pet dog to the degree that I question what's the entire point of this approach*.

I know, I was just picking random examples on my desk/in recent memory. The point isn't so much the historical authenticity or uniqueness of the "culture" (which is anything but monolithic) but rather the current, amorphous general consensus. I'm just trying to boil it down to the basics of what I consider "civilized" in my society and what ought to be the core of education. Dissent and diversity is welcome (metal is, or was, a kind of reaction) but it needs to be based on a shared knowledge, and it's the job of the education system and the state (through museums, libraries etc.) to uphold it. A person who limits themselves to the classics of their "pure" culture and doesn't want to experience what's out there is pretty boorish, but we all start from somewhere. If the lowest common denominator in some Islamic country is Mohammed, I'd rather it be Einstein and Aristotle in mine.

The problem with the political discussion on multiculturalism and immigration in Finland, at least, is its very polarized, stereotyped and ideological nature. We basically have one anti-EU, anti-gay, anti-art conservative populist party (one of their MEPs is an openly racist alcoholic with only 8 years of primary education and apparent connections to a biker gang) and they're the only ones whose programme is critical of immigration. Understandably but unfortunately, the sensible, liberal, pro-education and science, leftish and bourgeoisie parties and their voters take a very opposed stance to this, mostly for reasons of trend and ideology. There is the uncritical mantra of "the economy needs immigration" and "multiculturalism is an asset" which refuses to discuss issues separately and critically, but the vocal other side is equally uncritical in their plebeian, racist and petty generalizations. Criticism of immigration has a poor image among a large segment in Finland (and I imagine most of Europe) because it is so closely associated with boorish voters and politicians who are wrong about most things.

I don't know if my stance is changing closer towards yours. Maybe. Mostly it's that we just had a parliamentary election and I'm sick of the ideological caricatures and reiterated uncritical arguments of voters and candidates both. Immigration is a blind spot for the liberal leftist party I voted, but they're the least terrible option. I wish people would drop the ideological labels and punchlines like "tolerance", "traditional values", "equal opportunity", "responsibility for the less fortunate" and whatever, and argue clearly the specific issues, one at a time.

I wish people could separate one thing from the other, but it's generally a package deal: either you're critical of multiculturalism and immigration and a crude racist, or you're a naive cosmopolitan unwilling to even consider practical problems. (Still, I think the latter is the lesser evil.) It's OK if a Sikh wants to wear a turban at work, and it's just fucking petty to begrudge that. Or if a Muslim takes a prayer break, instead of the coffee break others enjoy half an hour later. Allowing things that are important to others and have no significant drawback is the decent thing to do. It's not OK if an immigrant (or native!) wants their kid to be exempt from certain classes at school because it's not in line with their culture or religion, or if they dictate how others must behave so as not to insult them. These are issues in different leagues, and should be considered individually rather than dictated by your choice of knee-jerk between "yay multiculturalism!" or "fuck immigrants!"

Written by deadone on 24.04.2015 at 03:50

Whilst it's true that non-Western influences had massive impact on Western civilisation, there was a growing divergence between the West and Middle East over many hundreds if not thousands of years ago...

Quote:


The Middle Ages was not thousands of years ago, if anything a few hundred of years ago thanks to the Enlightenment ("individualism, secularism, emphasis on technological innovation and eventually concepts of universal human rights") - and even that's pushing it. Look at Afghanistan, Iran or Egypt during the 30's up to the 60's - what you'll see are mainly secular societies even if traditional. The return to religion is a rather recent phenomena.

My end point is trying to create a totally unique even essentialist differences - is not real. I'm a naturalist (and a reductionist of sorts), I try my best not to mix metaphysics and politics.

Quote:
Totally agree demography is important even though elements of the Left refuse to believe this and put down all humans as essentially culturally the same.

I don't think the Europeans will stop mass migration - there's no political willpower to stop it. Countries now even continue to accept mass levels of migration during economic downturns, which just increases poverty and social disfunction (look at recent conflict between Zulus and migrants in South Africa).

Seems like that's the direction the EU is taking.

Written by IronAngel on 24.04.2015 at 09:54

... I'm just trying to boil it down to the basics of what I consider "civilized" in my society and what ought to be the core of education. Dissent and diversity is welcome (metal is, or was, a kind of reaction) but it needs to be based on a shared knowledge, and it's the job of the education system and the state (through museums, libraries etc.) to uphold it... If the lowest common denominator in some Islamic country is Mohammed, I'd rather it be Einstein and Aristotle in mine.

Well, it used to be Mohammed and Aristotle as a matter of fact. I apologize for not being the most charitable, I just don't think the issues boil down to "our" cultural background to "theirs". I met Syrians, Iraqis and Egyptians who I have lots in common with more than some Israelis I know. To me the problem is [i]mass[/i[ immigration and the social issues that seem to come with it.

Written by IronAngel on 24.04.2015 at 09:54

The problem with the political discussion on multiculturalism and immigration in Finland, at least, is its very polarized, stereotyped and ideological nature. We basically have one anti-EU, anti-gay, anti-art conservative populist party...Understandably but unfortunately, the sensible, liberal, pro-education and science, leftish and bourgeoisie parties and their voters take a very opposed stance to this, mostly for reasons of trend and ideology. ...Criticism of immigration has a poor image among a large segment in Finland (and I imagine most of Europe) because it is so closely associated with boorish voters and politicians who are wrong about most things...Immigration is a blind spot for the liberal leftist party I voted, but they're the least terrible option. I wish people would drop the ideological labels and punchlines like "tolerance", "traditional values", "equal opportunity", "responsibility for the less fortunate" and whatever, and argue clearly the specific issues, one at a time...

Yeah that always was a disturbing dichotomy. I don't think that parties like UKIP in the UK for instance would have risen without the failure of the left to address real issues. Well, I'm assuming to you that's your lesser evil, but people who are more closely affected by it the other way is true.
It's not as if it's an easy choice - declining refugees or not assisting boats (god forbid). There are perhaps creative solutions - but with the current employment rate in Southern Europe it's hard to see any and in Northern Europe mass immigration does not seem to couple well with it's traditional welfare state and is creating a lot of antagonism (I'm referring to Denmark).

Written by deadone on 26.04.2015 at 02:07

Yet the Muslims have failed to integrate and have instead come into broader cultural conflict with both mainstream European culture as well as other non-Muslim cultures (e.g. Pacific Islanders let alone traditional enemies, the Jews). The confrontational nature of Islam meant it could not integrate once larger groups of Muslims were around and started to organise into community groups. The issue is not individuals, the issue is once those individuals start organising into communities. Communities have their own consciousnesses to some degree. And Islamic communities seem to be very aggressive by default.

It's an ideology and people won't disagree with you that all ideologies are equal. Some may fit better to the 'Western' way of life. As far as the historical reasons, I don't understand fully what causes some communities to integrate and others to not.
It's one thing to explain the social psychology, the process of radicalization (preaching in mosques or internet recruitment and propaganda) and its funding. I had to tutor three Dutch immigrant girls the other day "why did you immigrate?" - "mother wanted to leave" - "why?" - "because Europe isn't good for Jews". I have family in Australia who do guard duty over Jewish community centers in Sydney, following the disgusting comments from my European friends from Belgium ("We have military cars in the streets because of Jews, we're turning into a fascist country because of them") I understand the magnitude of the problem from that perspective among others - but comments like 'nature of Islam' or 'very aggressive by default' are a mystification - an unfair and dangerous one - and for whatever reasons there are for failed integration, they do not lay in this approach.

Written by deadone on 27.04.2015 at 02:58

These aren't fringe elements - they're the mainstream.


If Islam was created now, we'd call it a cult and be probably sending in police to raid for weapons and investigate murder, mass pedophilia and abuse claims.

Given the polls, it seems most Islamic versions seriously needs reformation, I doubt many people would argue over that point.

And here we go again...Vehabija/Salafi movement

http://balkanopen.com/policeman-shot-dead-in-terrorist-attack-in-bosnian-serb-city-of-zvornik/

Written by deadone on 30.04.2015 at 02:29

Written by Rasputin on 29.04.2015 at 21:21

And here we go again...Vehabija/Salafi movement

http://balkanopen.com/policeman-shot-dead-in-terrorist-attack-in-bosnian-serb-city-of-zvornik/

Amazing that the once completely secular Bosnian muslms are going down this path especially after 20 years of peace! The only purpose of this is to cause more social strife. It's like they want another civil war.

Well, to be fair, the "Bosnian" identity is relatively new, since if you remember they listed themselves as undefined for a very long time. Now they are talking about Islam being there before the Ottoman invasion and Tvrtko being a :bosnjak: so now they are creating for their identity to be more towards the Islamic side and are less with the Slavic, which I would find to be a much better choice considering that as pagans there was mostly nature worship instead of this shit that we are seeing.

The other thing is terrorists are in full force in both Bosnia and Albania and the occupied territory of Kosovo, and no one is stopping them. I mean, there are meetings in broad daylight of the Salafi/Vehabija/Pro-ISIS groups and no one is doing shit about it. Balkan will be another ticking bomb. I know you are familiar with Serbian issues in "Sandzak" where we have terrorists and separatists operating to no end, because NATO/EU/UN are watching Serbia cannot even send the police there to fix the issue.

This is exactly how the ISIS became what it is today. They trained them, armed them and funded them and left them unattended for some time, and boom the end result we see today. This is how it is going to be in the Balkans again, sadly.

Written by deadone on 05.05.2015 at 03:02

Written by Bad English on 04.05.2015 at 18:49


in USA it wont work as in Euroope, home land security, NSA, CIA , FBI take sit seriuslly and terrorism, you can behold more then 72 h whit out charges, some ppl even can disappear and it can be deportation, EU don't know how deal whit jihadists, cancel passport easy, don't let then in again, secret service needs more power, like in USA ... I liie NSA and CIA and I don't like sbhonder dude who traied NSA secretsto media

I like those informers. If you let these agencies get away with everything, democracy suffers.

There has to be balance.

true but then ppl will say we don't do much, its 50-50 situation

I was still amazed at the liberals attacking the cartoonists for "provocation" and they are justifying islam lunatics for shooting. What has this world come to? Fuck

Written by deadone on 19.05.2015 at 04:35

Ah Muslims - I seldom deal with in my work but when I do they're universally unpleasant.

We've had a Muslim doctor verbally abuse our staff, staff from a hotel that we deal with and his own employment agency all because he was asked to provide a credit card imprint for accommodation. Apparently that is a racist thing to do because he is a Muslim and thus doesn't have a credit card or a debit card (and then refused to pay a refundable bond).

Why are these people so belligerent?

Because the world lets them. Now they think they are entitled to everything because of "racism" which is funny considering that Muslim is not a race.
They will not change and cannot change, so it is up to the rest of the world to make their stay as unpleasant as possible if they persist in their idiocy.

Written by deadone on 19.05.2015 at 05:06

Written by Rasputin on 19.05.2015 at 04:57

Because the world lets them. Now they think they are entitled to everything because of "racism" which is funny considering that Muslim is not a race.
They will not change and cannot change, so it is up to the rest of the world to make their stay as unpleasant as possible if they persist in their idiocy.

They do a great job of making the world unpleasant themselves. They behave as badly towards each other (e.g. Shia-Sunnis) as they do to non-Muslims. It's a religion of bigoted violent intolerance where everything is considered a provocation and an attack on Islam.

Agreed, but our stupid Western asses let them do this shit.

Check this out.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZL3axcwDz8

Insane.

^Meh, using public funds to reintegrate criminals and give them benefits is common. I guess the fact that it is suppose to target isis fighters makes everyone think it's a scandal now. Old news is old.

Written by deadone on 20.05.2015 at 02:13

Written by Rasputin on 19.05.2015 at 13:10

Agreed, but our stupid Western asses let them do this shit.

Check this out.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZL3axcwDz8

Insane.

Holy shit! That's beyond crazy.

http://www.breitbart.com/national-security/2015/05/18/stockholm-syndrome-sweden-offers-taxpayer-funded-benefits-to-lure-alienated-jihadists-home/

Sweden as a country is fucked. This is the same country where a Muslim butchering his sister gets 4 years prison, reduced to 2 if he was 16 at the time he did it.


Apparently at least one major Swedish poilitician wants Sweden to be more like that epitome of how fucked the third world is, Nigeria.

http://www.frontpagemag.com/2013/bruce-bawer/whats-wrong-with-sweden/
http://gatesofvienna.net/2014/12/swedens-suicide-pact/
http://www.nationalreview.com/article/410918/sweden-opt-suicide-immigration-daniel-pipes

Sweden is a bigger threat to Europe's future than bloody Russia with it's sabre rattling.

What's happening in countries like Sweden, France and UK is great evidence that the EU Shengen Zone needs to be scrapped.

I agree man, it is getting insane, but liberalism is the core problem of this.

EU zone was fucked from the start, the unfortunate thing is that now they allowed too many Muslims in already, so if they separate the zone we still have the Muslim issue.

Islam is the bigger threat than anything else I can imagine.

Written by deadone on 20.05.2015 at 05:34

These aren't common criminals. They're people who fought with violent militias that have committed untold atrocities and warcrimes.
Replace "ISIS" with "SS concentration camp guard or Einsatz Gruppen" and that might illustrate the point better.

Also the criminal has served time too before they get into a rehabilitation program. These ISIS doucebags would be given a free ride.

Nah, I don't think that having the ISIS tag should have special treatment, and this Swedish example is purely anecdotal (for now) so who cares. The interesting thing about this issue is the status of returning jihadists. Technically, you can't systematically imprison someone on their return hoping to press charges based on undocumented crimes in a war zone where an investigation wasn't even conducted. Some countries use the affiliation to terrorist group, indoctrination, illegal firearms possession,etc. arguments to automatically throw them into prison as it is possible to press charges immediately but in most cases they will remain unpunished for crimes committed on the other side of the world, simply coz the judicial system prevents from doing so. Only now countries confronted to this situation are starting to fill the legal vacuum.

@Deadone: Islam is not in and of itself a bad thing you know. It's just like with any othe religion it comes down to the individuals practicing it and their own interpretation of conduct. The problem is that the muslum world in it's Current state is still living hundreds of years in the past thanks to the continuation of theocratic rule and conservative practices there in. If you think about Christianity hundreds of years ago you had people murdered for being non Christian, or the wrong kind of Christian, or doing something that threatened the strangle hold Christianity had politically in whatever region, or doing something taboo like cheating or being a homosexual. As time has progressed nobody in most places anyway is going to die for these things in Christian communities. Maybe looked down upon but not acted against with deadly extremism. If you look at most American muslums it's exactly the same. The vast majority of muslums in America aren't in their basements making pipe bombs and planning public attacks. A lot of them are
Good decent, hard working people. Deadone, Rasputin, my friends, you suffer from an illness called predjiduce, and this illness is brought on by fear which has been intentionally induced by the media as form of political propaganda. This particular strain of predjiduce can also be called "Islamaphobia." The cure? Do a little research, walk outside, and hug a Muslum.

Written by Arian Totalis on 23.05.2015 at 04:52

@Deadone: Islam is not in and of itself a bad thing you know. It's just like with any othe religion it comes down to the individuals practicing it and their own interpretation of conduct. The problem is that the muslum world in it's Current state is still living hundreds of years in the past thanks to the continuation of theocratic rule and conservative practices there in. If you think about Christianity hundreds of years ago you had people murdered for being non Christian, or the wrong kind of Christian, or doing something that threatened the strangle hold Christianity had politically in whatever region, or doing something taboo like cheating or being a homosexual. As time has progressed nobody in most places anyway is going to die for these things in Christian communities. Maybe looked down upon but not acted against with deadly extremism. If you look at most American muslums it's exactly the same. The vast majority of muslums in America aren't in their basements making pipe bombs and planning public attacks. A lot of them are
Good decent, hard working people. Deadone, Rasputin, my friends, you suffer from an illness called predjiduce, and this illness is brought on by fear which has been intentionally induced by the media as form of political propaganda. This particular strain of predjiduce can also be called "Islamaphobia." The cure? Do a little research, walk outside, and hug a Muslum.

:yes:........good post

Written by deadone on 24.05.2015 at 13:02

Written by Arian Totalis on 23.05.2015 at 04:52

@Deadone: Islam is not in and of itself a bad thing you know. It's just like with any othe religion it comes down to the individuals practicing it and their own interpretation of conduct. The problem is that the muslum world in it's Current state is still living hundreds of years in the past thanks to the continuation of theocratic rule and conservative practices there in. If you think about Christianity hundreds of years ago you had people murdered for being non Christian, or the wrong kind of Christian, or doing something that threatened the strangle hold Christianity had politically in whatever region, or doing something taboo like cheating or being a homosexual. As time has progressed nobody in most places anyway is going to die for these things in Christian communities. Maybe looked down upon but not acted against with deadly extremism. If you look at most American muslums it's exactly the same. The vast majority of muslums in America aren't in their basements making pipe bombs and planning public attacks. A lot of them are
Good decent, hard working people. Deadone, Rasputin, my friends, you suffer from an illness called predjiduce, and this illness is brought on by fear which has been intentionally induced by the media as form of political propaganda. This particular strain of predjiduce can also be called "Islamaphobia." The cure? Do a little research, walk outside, and hug a Muslum.

Islam in itself is blatantly violent, oppressive, intolerant and authoritarian. This is the Koran and in the haddiths (subsequent interpretations of Koran).

This is not the rather vague Bible of Christianity. The rulings are clear - if a woman disrespects her husband, her husband should hit her, non-muslims need to pay a tax (but are exempt from military service), a female legal witness is worth half a man, marriage is to be organised, conversion out of muslim is apostasy and punishable by death etc.

The actions of the violent pedophile prophets are considered as precedent, hence even though the religion doesn't state an age, it's acceptable to marry child brides etc etc.


The problem is Christians assumes the Koran is the same as the Bible. It's not. It's closer to Mao Tse Tung's Red Book than a religious text.



Also Muslim states are getting more conservative not less. We've all seen the photos of relatively liberal Arabs in the 1960s replaced by women in burkas by the 2000s. Modern secularism is being replaced by religious conservatism.

Islam is the single biggest threat to the world today and a far bigger threat than Communism or Fascism ever were due to the power of belief.


And bare in mind in many Islamic countries, they don't even allow heavy metal. Try having these conversations in public in UAE or Saudi Arabia or Pakistan or Jordan and see how long you go without being arrested or lynched.

To suggest that any religion is inherently violent, oppressive, intolerant and authoritarian is inherently wrong. A lot of religions, especially religions of abrahamic tradition, go through phases of evolution which may start off light, but end up being entangled inside of political systems and so consequently used as tools of social control, which is where a lot of violence and oppression comes from. The bible is no more vague and no less than the Q'ran. For example, in luke 19:27 jesus appearantly said: "But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me." <----- jesus said kill people that aren't christian. There's no ifs, ands or buts about it. It was this verse that gave the catholic church carte de blanche to run all over the world commiting acts of genocide against non christian people underneath the banners of European countries. As far as women being second class citizens, there's this from corinthians 7:4: "The wife hath not power of her own body, but the husband"
and then there's the passage from exodus 20:14 where women are pretty much compared to property: "Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's house; thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maid-servant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbor's." You're comparing a person's wife to his servants and legal assets. That's completely fucked. She's mentioned even after the house, so maybe then even the house was held in higher regard? There were also several texts that gave examples of wives being sold, and women weren't allowed at church during their period because they were considered to be too unclean. The bible also advocated slavery, and had rules for slave beating, as can be seen here: "If a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod and he dies at his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, he survives a day or two, no vengeance shall be taken; for he is his property." Beat your slave, just don't kill him. How humane. Then there's the old world view on gay people, straight out of the bible from leviticus 20:13: "If a man lies with a male as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination. They shall surely be put to death. Their blood shall be upon them" In other words, kill all the fags. It's god's law so it's your law.

And that's what i'm really talking about here, law. We're talking about countries here that are still dealing with theocratic rule. In times when christianity had a political strangle hold on much of the world they used these passages as an excuse oppress and control people, just like they do now in Islamic theocracies. However if you look into islam in nations that are not governed by religion, people are considerably more rational 9 times out of 10. This is because they are not in a place where fundamental concepts aren't being constantly thrust upon them and they are actually allowed to think for themselves. There are even mosques where the imams give sermons that would never be allowed in places like Saudi. In Turkey, a country with a very prominent muslim population freedom of religion is respected and Sharia Law, which doesn't have to be nearly as crazy a thing as conservative pundents would have you believe, is generally only observed in the homes of Muslim families, not general society. There is no dress code and many muslim women do not cover their heads, but it's cool if they want to. Nobody is sold into marriage legally, nobody owns slaves. It's all pretty senseable. Here in the US muslim people pre 9-11 were actually considered to be normal people like anyone else, and any reasonable person still would. Like I said before the vast majority of American Muslims are American just like me. Hell, my best friend grew up in Saudi and was raised a sunni muslim. He doesn't practice the religion anymore because it's really just not for him, but he and his father get along well he wasn't disowned or anything. Much less put to death. On top of that, despite this stereotype of Muslims hating the US his father has actually defended the integrity of this country against fellow arabs who are critical of our people. He's a Sunni Muslim and he's a good dude.

Most dictatorships period don't allow any music that might call into question the authority of the state. And that's exactly what a theocracy is: it's a religious dictatorship, in some form or other. So problem is not the religion someone follows, it's what mad men do with their power. You can worry about Muslims all you want but i'm more concerned with the Ayatollah and Vladmir putin. Not a specific group of individuals that have existed on this planet for 1600 years.

Written by Arian Totalis on 25.05.2015 at 00:14

Written by deadone on 24.05.2015 at 13:02

Written by Arian Totalis on 23.05.2015 at 04:52

@Deadone: Islam is not in and of itself a bad thing you know. It's just like with any othe religion it comes down to the individuals practicing it and their own interpretation of conduct. The problem is that the muslum world in it's Current state is still living hundreds of years in the past thanks to the continuation of theocratic rule and conservative practices there in. If you think about Christianity hundreds of years ago you had people murdered for being non Christian, or the wrong kind of Christian, or doing something that threatened the strangle hold Christianity had politically in whatever region, or doing something taboo like cheating or being a homosexual. As time has progressed nobody in most places anyway is going to die for these things in Christian communities. Maybe looked down upon but not acted against with deadly extremism. If you look at most American muslums it's exactly the same. The vast majority of muslums in America aren't in their basements making pipe bombs and planning public attacks. A lot of them are
Good decent, hard working people. Deadone, Rasputin, my friends, you suffer from an illness called predjiduce, and this illness is brought on by fear which has been intentionally induced by the media as form of political propaganda. This particular strain of predjiduce can also be called "Islamaphobia." The cure? Do a little research, walk outside, and hug a Muslum.

Islam in itself is blatantly violent, oppressive, intolerant and authoritarian. This is the Koran and in the haddiths (subsequent interpretations of Koran).

This is not the rather vague Bible of Christianity. The rulings are clear - if a woman disrespects her husband, her husband should hit her, non-muslims need to pay a tax (but are exempt from military service), a female legal witness is worth half a man, marriage is to be organised, conversion out of muslim is apostasy and punishable by death etc.

The actions of the violent pedophile prophets are considered as precedent, hence even though the religion doesn't state an age, it's acceptable to marry child brides etc etc.


The problem is Christians assumes the Koran is the same as the Bible. It's not. It's closer to Mao Tse Tung's Red Book than a religious text.



Also Muslim states are getting more conservative not less. We've all seen the photos of relatively liberal Arabs in the 1960s replaced by women in burkas by the 2000s. Modern secularism is being replaced by religious conservatism.

Islam is the single biggest threat to the world today and a far bigger threat than Communism or Fascism ever were due to the power of belief.


And bare in mind in many Islamic countries, they don't even allow heavy metal. Try having these conversations in public in UAE or Saudi Arabia or Pakistan or Jordan and see how long you go without being arrested or lynched.

To suggest that any religion is inherently violent, oppressive, intolerant and authoritarian is inherently wrong. A lot of religions, especially religions of abrahamic tradition, go through phases of evolution which may start off light, but end up being entangled inside of political systems and so consequently used as tools of social control, which is where a lot of violence and oppression comes from. The bible is no more vague and no less than the Q'ran. For example, in luke 19:27 jesus appearantly said: "But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me." <----- jesus said kill people that aren't christian. There's no ifs, ands or buts about it. It was this verse that gave the catholic church carte de blanche to run all over the world commiting acts of genocide against non christian people underneath the banners of European countries. As far as women being second class citizens, there's this from corinthians 7:4: "The wife hath not power of her own body, but the husband"
and then there's the passage from exodus 20:14 where women are pretty much compared to property: "Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's house; thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maid-servant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbor's." You're comparing a person's wife to his servants and legal assets. That's completely fucked. She's mentioned even after the house, so maybe then even the house was held in higher regard? There were also several texts that gave examples of wives being sold, and women weren't allowed at church during their period because they were considered to be too unclean. The bible also advocated slavery, and had rules for slave beating, as can be seen here: "If a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod and he dies at his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, he survives a day or two, no vengeance shall be taken; for he is his property." Beat your slave, just don't kill him. How humane. Then there's the old world view on gay people, straight out of the bible from leviticus 20:13: "If a man lies with a male as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination. They shall surely be put to death. Their blood shall be upon them" In other words, kill all the fags. It's god's law so it's your law.

And that's what i'm really talking about here, law. We're talking about countries here that are still dealing with theocratic rule. In times when christianity had a political strangle hold on much of the world they used these passages as an excuse oppress and control people, just like they do now in Islamic theocracies. However if you look into islam in nations that are not governed by religion, people are considerably more rational 9 times out of 10. This is because they are not in a place where fundamental concepts aren't being constantly thrust upon them and they are actually allowed to think for themselves. There are even mosques where the imams give sermons that would never be allowed in places like Saudi. In Turkey, a country with a very prominent muslim population freedom of religion is respected and Sharia Law, which doesn't have to be nearly as crazy a thing as conservative pundents would have you believe, is generally only observed in the homes of Muslim families, not general society. There is no dress code and many muslim women do not cover their heads, but it's cool if they want to. Nobody is sold into marriage legally, nobody owns slaves. It's all pretty senseable. Here in the US muslim people pre 9-11 were actually considered to be normal people like anyone else, and any reasonable person still would. Like I said before the vast majority of American Muslims are American just like me. Hell, my best friend grew up in Saudi and was raised a sunni muslim. He doesn't practice the religion anymore because it's really just not for him, but he and his father get along well he wasn't disowned or anything. Much less put to death. On top of that, despite this stereotype of Muslims hating the US his father has actually defended the integrity of this country against fellow arabs who are critical of our people. He's a Sunni Muslim and he's a good dude.

Most dictatorships period don't allow any music that might call into question the authority of the state. And that's exactly what a theocracy is: it's a religious dictatorship, in some form or other. So problem is not the religion someone follows, it's what mad men do with their power. You can worry about Muslims all you want but i'm more concerned with the Ayatollah and Vladmir putin. Not a specific group of individuals that have existed on this planet for 1600 years.

Ok, Mr. Philosopher, did you actually read the fucking book or not? If you haven't we have nothing to discuss. As Deadone pointed out already, Islam is a religion of hate and conquering, there is no place for non Muslims to live and thrive anywhere where the Muslims constitute a majority. Islam is inherently violent, oppressive, intolerant and authoritarian, or did you miss the memo?

You keep bringing up what Christianity did, and what it "DID" and what Islam is "DOING" are two different things. Christianity had its faults and issues, and it still does, it had changes and became moderate and one with the Western society, Islam never did and it never will, because in Islam you either submit or you die. Show me one Islamic country that is tolerant of everyone else, and that is not reverting back to the time period of 2000BC.

American Muslims? What are those? Those do not exist, you are either a Muslim, or and American, or a Muslim living in America, you cannot be both. Explain to me why every EU country has a problem with Islam and Muslims? Show me one place on this planet that they have made better or are in the process of making better?

So you are judging your experience with one "good dude" to present you with the image of Islam that you are spewing here? By that right I could post Malali and state that she is the image of Islam, which would be bullshit. Islam is something to be very very afraid off. And why are you afraid of Vladimir Putin? I am more afraid of our own government than him

@Deadone

Agree with mostly everything you said.

Written by deadone on 29.05.2015 at 08:45

And sometimes Muslims just make me laugh (until I realise this is many of their visions for the rest of us).

Saw a Muslim couple walking down the road. The man was storming along with the wife the following behind within the prescribed gap (is it 6 paces?). As the man is storming along completely oblivious to his wife, he is getting further ahead.

Once the gap got too big the woman would jog back into position behind her man until the husband would again gain ground and then she would jog again to catch up. And so on.


In any sane culture, the woman would walk along side her husband. This poor woman obviously couldn't even ask her husband to slow down let alone walk beside him.

What scares me is they bring this bullshit here and then force it on to their kids and even worse call for adoption of these values by everyone else. At that point it's no longer funny.

You and I don't know what we are talking about apparently, because we been going in circle. Our opposition here complains about our sources and how we just don't understand Islam. We ask them to explain to us why Muslims in EU and all around the world are always engaging in violence and want Sharia, and we ask them to show us what place was made better by allowing them to migrate to, and we have no responses. Liberals don't use normal logic, Social Justice Warriors will be slayed by their own stupidity and naive thinking in the end. Islam is the greatest threat to the world, to our way of life and to technology and progress. I keep seeing that no matter how strong arguments are, our opposition does not care. Sad, very very sad.

Written by deadone on 30.05.2015 at 01:53

Written by Rasputin on 29.05.2015 at 23:32

Liberals don't use normal logic,

No they don't.

They're arguments are extremely poorly thought out:

E.g.

1. Australia is a country of migrants and thus should always accept migrants (never mind economic or social or whatever other arguments one might to throw in).

2. Only problems with immigration are due to lack of government support (typical bleeding heart bullshit) and resistance by local people to immigrants. They never ever even consider that the migrants have a responsibility to integrate.

3. Anyone that is anti-Islam or anti-mass immigration is automatically an uneducated redneck,

4. Islam is a religion of peace but mainstream Christianity is evil and oppressive.

5. They claim everyone has individual rights blah blah. But attacking cultural practices that violante individual rights (e.g. child brides, dowries etc) is considered to be racist.

6. All non-Western cultures are beautiful but West is evil and consumerist driven.


Their lines of thought are extremely dangerous. Problem is these people run the agenda.

Welcome to the club, pretty soon they will label you as a skinhead for your views. West has its faults, yes, but I rather live in the West than some Muslim gutter which they create automatically.

It seems to me like there is a complete disconnect from reality. I think the problem with Christianity vs Islam is simply that people did not do their research, so for the sake of tolerance they defend Islam because it has been "hijacked" by radicals. I just got into it the other day with one of my coworkers who defends them and their rights and I asked him if he had read the Quran and he said he did not, and I asked him what he knew about Islam, his response was "not much." That is also problem in politics, a lot of politicians know but they don;t want to speak out, and the rest has no clue, completely oblivious to the problem. That is why I applauded your Prime Minister or President or whomever, that spoke up against the Islamic bullshit, I wish more countries would do that.

I could easily refute everything you guys have said with easily verifiable facts, and that comment about there being no such thing as an American Muslim actually pisses me off to no end. I own the Koran, and the bible, and the Bhagavad Gita, and the Tao te Ching and the I Ching and a plethora of other religious texts, and I have read them all. I've spent a good portion of my life dedicated to the study of religion. It's clear to me that you both have a very narrow minded understanding of the subject and just listen to whatever right wing propaganda is thrown at you. The fact is that you're right, we have nothing to discuss, because you're both biggots, and there's no arguing with people like you. You'll both just sit on you little clouds of ignorant hatred your whole lives.

"Darkness can not drive out darkness. Only light can do that. Hatred can not drive out hatred, only love can do that" -Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

Written by Arian Totalis on 01.06.2015 at 09:34

I could easily refute everything you guys have said with easily verifiable facts, and that comment about there being no such thing as an American Muslim actually pisses me off to no end. I own the Koran, and the bible, and the Bhagavad Gita, and the Tao te Ching and the I Ching and a plethora of other religious texts, and I have read them all. I've spent a good portion of my life dedicated to the study of religion. It's clear to me that you both have a very narrow minded understanding of the subject and just listen to whatever right wing propaganda is thrown at you. The fact is that you're right, we have nothing to discuss, because you're both biggots, and there's no arguing with people like you. You'll both just sit on you little clouds of ignorant hatred your whole lives.

"Darkness can not drive out darkness. Only light can do that. Hatred can not drive out hatred, only love can do that" -Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

...love this guy.

Written by Guest on 01.06.2015 at 10:54

Written by Arian Totalis on 01.06.2015 at 09:34

I could easily refute everything you guys have said with easily verifiable facts, and that comment about there being no such thing as an American Muslim actually pisses me off to no end. I own the Koran, and the bible, and the Bhagavad Gita, and the Tao te Ching and the I Ching and a plethora of other religious texts, and I have read them all. I've spent a good portion of my life dedicated to the study of religion. It's clear to me that you both have a very narrow minded understanding of the subject and just listen to whatever right wing propaganda is thrown at you. The fact is that you're right, we have nothing to discuss, because you're both biggots, and there's no arguing with people like you. You'll both just sit on you little clouds of ignorant hatred your whole lives.

"Darkness can not drive out darkness. Only light can do that. Hatred can not drive out hatred, only love can do that" -Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

...love this guy.

Thanks for the support. Happy to see someone who isn't just blindly bashing other people's cultures and beliefs for no good reason. I think I'm done with this thread though.

Written by Arian Totalis on 01.06.2015 at 11:59


Thanks for the support. Happy to see someone who isn't just blindly bashing other people's cultures and beliefs for no good reason. I think I'm done with this thread though.

Yeah don't worry, i think most of us here at metalstorm have the same thoughts as you but don't won't to participate in they're endless ridiculous arguments. I have actually had people pm me these sorts of things, obviously wanting to show there thoughts without getting roped in.
I don't usually even look at this thread unless someone different has posted, i have blocked rasputin to save my eyes, but deadone i get along with in other threads....mostly.

Written by Guest on 02.06.2015 at 00:51

Yeah don't worry, i think most of us here at metalstorm have the same thoughts as you but don't won't to participate in they're endless ridiculous arguments. I have actually had people pm me these sorts of things, obviously wanting to show there thoughts without getting roped in.
I don't usually even look at this thread unless someone different has posted, i have blocked rasputin to save my eyes, but deadone i get along with in other threads....mostly.

At least certain other members address the issue and do not turn other members into the subject. Spare us the meta-discussion and don't turn this into a thread used to bash other members.
Sadly perhaps, appealing to cliches, however popular, is not going to solve any issue. Not for the Kurds, Christians in the Middle East or Baha'is. Take into account some people grew or adopted a different word-view from you, as cliched filled and dogmatic and yet a very opposed one which "give me a hug" won't solve.

Written by Candlemass on 02.06.2015 at 10:16



At least certain other members address the issue and do not turn other members into the subject. Spare us the meta-discussion and don't turn this into a thread used to bash other members.
Sadly perhaps, appealing to cliches, however popular, is not going to solve any issue. Not for the Kurds, Christians in the Middle East or Baha'is. Take into account some people grew or adopted a different word-view from you, as cliched filled and dogmatic and yet a very opposed one which "give me a hug" won't solve.

Cliches and "give me hugs" aren't necessarily the parts that i was agreeing with, or saying would solve these problems....though i'm sure your guys theories would.


anyway, i'll stay out of it now

Written by Guest on 02.06.2015 at 11:01

Cliches and "give me hugs" aren't necessarily the parts that i was agreeing with, or saying would solve these problems....though i'm sure your guys theories would.

anyway, i'll stay out of it now

"your guys" maybe "your guy's"? Is that a sentence in English?
So what part exactly? The trivial ones like "not all Muslims are terrorists" which is embarrassingly obvious and yet presented as profound wisdom? That many Muslims have American citizenship and participate in American society? What exactly was lately so profound that wasn't mentioned in this thread already and on top of that already addressed, that warranted posts that are purely personal attacks on other members?
No, not everyone are exactly the same (but a little bit different).
I agree that the attitude of "Ze MuSlims" is rotten and it was criticized it more than once in this thread - yet trivializing the topic with a bunch of feel good cliches because you will probably never have to deal with the topic seriously - is what caused the surge in 'right wing' voters in Europe the last few years.

Quote:

Written by Candlemass on 02.06.2015 at 11:40



anyway, i'll stay out of it now

"your guys" maybe "your guy's"? Is that a sentence in English?
So what part exactly? The trivial ones like "not all Muslims are terrorists" which is embarrassingly obvious and yet presented as profound wisdom? That many Muslims have American citizenship and participate in American society? What exactly was lately so profound that wasn't mentioned in this thread already and on top of that already addressed, that warranted posts that are purely personal attacks on other members?
No, not everyone are exactly the same (but a little bit different).
I agree that the attitude of "Ze MuSlims" is rotten and it was criticized it more than once in this thread - yet trivializing the topic with a bunch of feel good cliches because you will probably never have to deal with the topic seriously - is what caused the surge in 'right wing' voters in Europe the last few years.

Sheesh! anyone would have thought it was you i was supposedly personally attacking. Maybe my grammar ain't the best and i'm not very articulate either, everyone knows that, but surely you can read the last sentence of my last post.

Written by Guest on 02.06.2015 at 12:26

Sheesh! anyone would have thought it was you i was supposedly personally attacking. Maybe my grammar ain't the best and i'm not very articulate either, everyone knows that, but surely you can read the last sentence of my last post.

It's not your grammar, it's your disturbing continuation of the previous theme; concentrating about who's writing and not what he or they wrote - stepped up now to a tribal level ("You Guys").

I just discovered a few days ago both of my Swedish friend's parents are Bahá'ís. Of course none of my European friends have heard about them, there's no motivation behind it.
A few hundred thousand live in a Shia Theocracy - they are not allowed to participate in Higher education unless they declare themselves Muslim, their holy places destroyed and Mosques built over them, their cemeteries bulldozed leaving the bodies exposed. The same issues arise in Sunni countries while Islamic clergy justify it using their theology.
Maybe one should ask the Bahá'í about 'Islamophobia'.

People are concerned with theocracy and religious ideas for good reasons. Trying to silence the discussion using personal attacks is not going to work - an open discussion will, especially those that include Muslims.

I had a discussion in this thread about wife-beating and the Qur'an. It went into several other issues, like the different translations of the Qur'an and ended up with "treat your wife like a child" implying sometimes she could use a slap to put her in place. I don't know how acceptable you find that but I don't and that's not the only idea I don't find acceptable for various reasons and no "let's hug", "my best friend is", "everyone are the same" is going to solve these disagreements.

I think secularist being passive and quite frankly confused about what democratic discourse is are doing a mistake silencing themselves out of political correctness and wishful thinking.

Written by Candlemass on 02.06.2015 at 13:19



It's not your grammar, it's your disturbing continuation of the previous theme; concentrating about who's writing and not what he or they wrote - stepped up now to a tribal level ("You Guys").

I just discovered a few days ago both of my Swedish friend's parents are Bahá'ís. Of course none of my European friends have heard about them, there's no motivation behind it.
A few hundred thousand live in a Shia Theocracy - they are not allowed to participate in Higher education unless they declare themselves Muslim, their holy places destroyed and Mosques built over them, their cemeteries bulldozed leaving the bodies exposed. The same issues arise in Sunni countries while Islamic clergy justify it using their theology.
Maybe one should ask the Bahá'í about 'Islamophobia'.

People are concerned with theocracy and religious ideas for good reasons. Trying to silence the discussion using personal attacks is not going to work - an open discussion will, especially those that include Muslims.

I had a discussion in this thread about wife-beating and the Qur'an. It went into several other issues, like the different translations of the Qur'an and ended up with "treat your wife like a child" implying sometimes she could use a slap to put her in place. I don't know how acceptable you find that but I don't and that's not the only idea I don't find acceptable for various reasons and no "let's hug", "my best friend is", "everyone are the same" is going to solve these disagreements.

I think secularist being passive and quite frankly confused about what democratic discourse is are doing a mistake silencing themselves out of political correctness and wishful thinking.

I'm not trying to silence the discussion or say w'ere all the same, fuck you got a lot out of my few sentences, a few sentences that didn't seem to even register with you....carry on your discussion, i'm out of here