I assume everyone did once think that: you love one band (for exemple Rammstein when they were on Herzeleid) and then it became famous, everybody talk about it and you feel like your admiration for the band were somehow "wasted" by the huge among of newbies. And then you think that the music grows always cheesier and commercial, even accuse the band to be "pop metal" (I read it in the Dimmu Borgir thread).

Take Dimmu Borgir for instance, if it was an underground band, the critics wouldn't be so hard, it would be considered as a great band, but the simple fact that they are "popular" seems to make them cheesy, because a little inner voice tell you "you have to be cheesy to please the crowd".

Are there some true elements in this way of thinking, or is it pure "metal hype attitude", a kind of snobism that make us believe that the aristocraty of taste is reserved to the few?

I dunno what to say but I liked Metallica but hate iy now, I liked Paradise Lost, Amorfis, ToT, Anathema, but I hate them now,
why?
Because of style chganging and hair cut thats why easy and simple

I cannot think of anything more stupid than hating a band for getting a haircut.

Written by Dagorwen on 28.07.2008 at 14:49

even accuse the band to be "pop metal" (I read it in the Dimmu Borgir thread).

sorry, i don't care who said that, but anyone who might say that is an idiot. the closest thing to pop metal is ac/dc, motley crue, van halen, poison etc. not something as completely opposed to them as DB.

i've never felt like "oh no, everyone knows this band.. and i know so much and these n00bs know so little.. i think i'll stop listening to them", i tend to not care about what other people think of certain bands that i listen to(i don't even listen to Dimmu), except if they sound like some kind of idiots and need a rude awakening of course.

Written by Lucas on 28.07.2008 at 15:16

I cannot think of anything more stupid than hating a band for getting a haircut.

Hahaha, me neither! First I thought he was joking, but he keeps mentioning it so now... I dunno.

Everyone who stop listening to a band because it became popular is a big asshole.

I don't like new DM noit because it's mor epopular... is simply because I don't find DM's new stuff good, I don't feel anything while listening to them.

As an oppositive case... I love the new Anathema, and who really cares if the bands if opular?

Do some guys feel better when they say "I love a band... and it's so underground!!!" ?
'C'mon guys, those who think like that should get a life and feel the music in a better way.

I stop listening band if I dont like newer albums, even I hate new Metallica but I wont stop listening old albums
I even I HATE new Lacrimas Perfondum I neve rwill forgot beautifull doom era albums, same whit ToT and so on

Never and Warmer - hehee Paradise Lost disco era are good example
GOOD short hair metal bands Bone to Rust and many more even Bruce cut his hair IM and Bruce sole are awsome
hair cut isnt bad if band dont chganges
Even Destruction and Kreator are LONG hair I dont liike new realises

Written by Bad English on 28.07.2008 at 16:31

I stop listening band if I dont like newer albums.

Ok.. let's think this situation:

What happens if a band that you love the old stuff... and hate the new stuff. Start to change the genre again and go back to the roots, would you love them?

Written by X-Ray Rod on 28.07.2008 at 16:37

Written by Bad English on 28.07.2008 at 16:31

I stop listening band if I dont like newer albums.

Ok.. let's think this situation:

What happens if a band that you love the old stuff... and hate the new stuff. Start to change the genre again and go back to the roots, would you love them?

Exampoles

Probobly no , because you cant change you shood not change to bad side,

but I loved only old albums and there fiew bands what I love full albums

My Dying Bride and Iron Maiden and Bruce Dickinson, others I shood think(thsoe who live more how 10 years)

Written by Bad English on 28.07.2008 at 16:49

Exampoles

Probobly no , because you cant change you shood not change to bad side,

but I loved only old albums and there fiew bands what I love full albums

My Dying Bride and Iron Maiden and Bruce Dickinson, others I shood think(thsoe who live more how 10 years)

Ok, let's put it on this way:

What happens if Paradise Lost's new album is a Doom/death album just like the debut?

Written by X-Ray Rod on 28.07.2008 at 16:56

Written by Bad English on 28.07.2008 at 16:49

Exampoles

Probobly no , because you cant change you shood not change to bad side,

but I loved only old albums and there fiew bands what I love full albums

My Dying Bride and Iron Maiden and Bruce Dickinson, others I shood think(thsoe who live more how 10 years)

Ok, let's put it on this way:

What happens if Paradise Lost's new album is a Doom/death album just like the debut?

No it isnt I dont feel that old school early 90ties atmsofere into it, its like album whit out soul, even if ist death/doom but its not like firt 4+1 and never will be

Written by Bad English on 28.07.2008 at 16:58

Written by X-Ray Rod on 28.07.2008 at 16:56

No it isnt I dont feel that old school early 90ties atmsofere into it, its like album whit out soul, even if ist death/doom but its not like firt 4+1 and never will be

And if it is the same fucking production, atmosphere, sound and etc etc...?

Written by X-Ray Rod on 28.07.2008 at 16:59

Written by Bad English on 28.07.2008 at 16:58

Written by X-Ray Rod on 28.07.2008 at 16:56

No it isnt I dont feel that old school early 90ties atmsofere into it, its like album whit out soul, even if ist death/doom but its not like firt 4+1 and never will be

And if it is the same fucking production, atmosphere, sound and etc etc...?

But I dont get those feelings what I get from first 4
Its like sex whit real girl but last album its like sex whit a doll, basicly same thinks but real think are real what a stupid example

Mmmm... You don't understand the example, aaaahh fuck it. I can't try with you.

I see a lot of that too with people on forums, but I don't necessarily feel it myself. The hardest part is that when I was screaming OPETH five years ago not many people cared to listen or hear me (from school mostly). Look where they are now with Watershed and now so many people jumped on the band wagon.

Then again, you have to add age as a consideration. Think about the 30 year old metalheads or plus a few years. They've been around to see the bands that have grown big or faded.

I've never stopped loving a band just because it was well known though....

I usually am like that, but for certain bands I can't bring myself to hate them because of a little more spotlight than usual. Cradle Of Filth and Opeth for example, both brilliant bands with amazing music, they have been around for quite sometime, so I can't help but to think they deserve more admiration. Those bands I can deal with getting a little mainstream, but bands that just pop out of nowhere and suddenly everyone loves them, I could careless how good they are. Fuck mainstream.

Written by Sick Girl on 28.07.2008 at 19:12

I usually am like that, but for certain bands I can't bring myself to hate them because of a little more spotlight than usual. Cradle Of Filth and Opeth for example, both brilliant bands with amazing music, they have been around for quite sometime, so I can't help but to think they deserve more admiration. Those bands I can deal with getting a little mainstream, but bands that just pop out of nowhere and suddenly everyone loves them, I could careless how good they are. Fuck mainstream.

Opeth and CoF in same cathegory Opeth even try hard cant eb so ovareted and let down how cof , and Opeth are more lifestyle, sorrow, poetry but CoF are more realise album because fans need it

Written by TheBigRossowski on 28.07.2008 at 17:22
The hardest part is that when I was screaming OPETH five years ago not many people cared to listen or hear me (from school mostly).

Opeth was fucking huge five years ago. I believe they roughly reached maximum mainstream exposure with BWP.

Written by Dagorwen on 28.07.2008 at 14:49
I assume everyone did once think that: you love one band (for exemple Rammstein when they were on Herzeleid) and then it became famous, everybody talk about it and you feel like your admiration for the band were somehow "wasted" by the huge among of newbies. And then you think that the music grows always cheesier and commercial, even accuse the band to be "pop metal" (I read it in the Dimmu Borgir thread).

Poser attitude. The savvy metalhead doesn't hate popular metal because it is popular, but because they elements that generally make music popular are unappealing to him. And Dimmu Borgir is absolutely pop metal, relatively speaking.

Written by totaliteraliter on 28.07.2008 at 20:04

Written by TheBigRossowski on 28.07.2008 at 17:22
The hardest part is that when I was screaming OPETH five years ago not many people cared to listen or hear me (from school mostly).

Opeth was fucking huge five years ago. I believe they roughly reached maximum mainstream exposure with BWP.

Written by Dagorwen on 28.07.2008 at 14:49
I assume everyone did once think that: you love one band (for exemple Rammstein when they were on Herzeleid) and then it became famous, everybody talk about it and you feel like your admiration for the band were somehow "wasted" by the huge among of newbies. And then you think that the music grows always cheesier and commercial, even accuse the band to be "pop metal" (I read it in the Dimmu Borgir thread).

Poser attitude. The savvy metalhead doesn't hate popular metal because it is popular, but because they elements that generally make music popular are unappealing to him. And Dimmu Borgir is absolutely pop metal, relatively speaking.

Could be the gap in countries....five years ago I lived in Midwest Texas. There no one seemed to care and all those who did were all about BWP. Five years laters, living in Germany and Opeth definitely has more exposure.

the issue is when a band becomes popular, it alters the audience base. coming from an underground scene (be it punk or extreme metal or whatever) and growing, it extracts new fans from outside the existing fanbase... and most of these new listeners are oblivious to the subculture from which the band spawned.

net result is an increase in popularity attracts two basic types:

1 - those there for the wrong reasons - simply because the band is the new flavor of the month.

2 - those there for the right reasons - those for whom the band is the first taste of the genre, a genre in which they are now definitely interested in.

sometimes i do think an influx of the first sort of fans does seriously lessen my enjoyment of the band itself (particularly when adjusts their sound in order to attract a larger fan base) - which is sad, i suppose when fear of being lumped in with the new breed of fan supersedes my enjoyment of the bad itself. then again, i am loathe to hear myself referred to as a 'metalhead' for the same reasons.

as for the second group, let's face it, that was each of us at one point. all of us were 'newbies' - at least unless someone on this board is the secret bastard offspring of Lemmy and Jo Bench (of Bolt Thrower, for those unaware).

Written by BitterCOld on 28.07.2008 at 21:05

the issue is when a band becomes popular, it alters the audience base. coming from an underground scene (be it punk or extreme metal or whatever) and growing, it extracts new fans from outside the existing fanbase... and most of these new listeners are oblivious to the subculture from which the band spawned.

Also langauge, Arakain, Doga, never be popular outside Czeh Rep. even bands are WELL know there, same whit Aria and Kipelov, in Russia Epizod in Bulgaria and also orgin country are important
Even Spitfire plays in englsih tahy arent peopluar outside Ellada same whit Flames

Written by totaliteraliter on 28.07.2008 at 20:04

The savvy metalhead doesn't hate popular metal because it is popular, but because they elements that generally make music popular are unappealing to him.

I agree 100%.

I don't think this just relates to metal either. Sometimes I don't think it's a bands fault if they become popular (ie: NOT WITHIN TEMPTATION). For instance, due to the latest "it's cool to be indie" trend here in the states, the band Radiohead has gotten MUCH MUCH more popular than they already were... making them more "mainstream". Sure it irritates me to see more and more poser assholes that claim to like bands I love... but if that's what it costs to get different music to the ears of potential REAL fans that can love a bands music and all it's beauty... then so be it.

Oh, and this bit about the whole "cheesy" aspects of metal... people eat it up. That's why mediocre bands like Dragonforce ( ) are so friggin popular. Don't get me wrong. I like a bit of cheese in my art (Rhapsody of Fire, the Evil Dead movies), but when it's overdone it looses all its charm.

Written by BitterCOld on 28.07.2008 at 21:05

the issue is when a band becomes popular, it alters the audience base. coming from an underground scene (be it punk or extreme metal or whatever) and growing, it extracts new fans from outside the existing fanbase... and most of these new listeners are oblivious to the subculture from which the band spawned.

net result is an increase in popularity attracts two basic types:

1 - those there for the wrong reasons - simply because the band is the new flavor of the month.

2 - those there for the right reasons - those for whom the band is the first taste of the genre, a genre in which they are now definitely interested in.

sometimes i do think an influx of the first sort of fans does seriously lessen my enjoyment of the band itself (particularly when adjusts their sound in order to attract a larger fan base) - which is sad, i suppose when fear of being lumped in with the new breed of fan supersedes my enjoyment of the bad itself. then again, i am loathe to hear myself referred to as a 'metalhead' for the same reasons.

as for the second group, let's face it, that was each of us at one point. all of us were 'newbies' - at least unless someone on this board is the secret bastard offspring of Lemmy and Jo Bench (of Bolt Thrower, for those unaware).

I agree on all of your post. I have to admit that is kinda annoying to see how many posers suddenly likes the band just because it turned the new shit.

I think that I start to dislike the music of a band just went I feel like it doesn't "feed" me quite well.

But most metalheads start to hate a band just because they changed the genre. There's a big difference between a band that change the sound to appeal for the first of your group of people AND the bands that change the sound just because they wanted it so... And those who hate a band just for the second options.... are just idiots, as simple as that.

in all honesty, i think i would have gone like that if i was a Nightwish fan in say 2001, before they hit it bigtime.. i actually remember seeing their video for "Over the Hills and Far Away" on a hungarian music channel back in 2003 or something. the influx of fans was unbelievable.

Written by totaliteraliter on 28.07.2008 at 20:04

And Dimmu Borgir is absolutely pop metal, relatively speaking.

Relative to what exactly? Your own set of standards as to what dictates "true" black metal?

Written by Stuart on 29.07.2008 at 01:26

Written by totaliteraliter on 28.07.2008 at 20:04

And Dimmu Borgir is absolutely pop metal, relatively speaking.

Relative to what exactly? Your own set of standards as to what dictates "true" black metal?

No, to extreme metal in general.

The popular level of the bands that can impact on my taste of listening. Im lean towards more on famous bands rather than some unknown. I dont care its cheesy if that because of the bands are popular. But if you listen to a very unknown band, you will feel "lifeless" or "solitary" because you are the only one appreciating the music which other dont listen to. I say that but it is not wrong for the underground bands such as in black metal. Underground black bands are still very well known in metalhead community, so that we cant say they are unknown.

A example of a band I listen to: Crown Of Autumn, they are very unknown, and yeah that could lead me less listening to.

So, to sum up, I like the popular bands for their music not to be pleased the crowd but to go with them on the way of music listening cause.

Written by totaliteraliter on 28.07.2008 at 20:04

Written by Dagorwen on 28.07.2008 at 14:49
I assume everyone did once think that: you love one band (for exemple Rammstein when they were on Herzeleid) and then it became famous, everybody talk about it and you feel like your admiration for the band were somehow "wasted" by the huge among of newbies. And then you think that the music grows always cheesier and commercial, even accuse the band to be "pop metal" (I read it in the Dimmu Borgir thread).

Poser attitude. The savvy metalhead doesn't hate popular metal because it is popular, but because they elements that generally make music popular are unappealing to him. And Dimmu Borgir is absolutely pop metal, relatively speaking.

OF COURSE it's a poser attitude... but (I fear I'm gonna have some enemies ^^) aren't all the black metalheads that claim to be "true" posers? When metal isn't just a great music but also implies corpsepaint, proper haircut, proper nailed leather accessories etc... it's a little bit of a poser fashion isn't it? I have anything against posers, for the result of 1hour dressing and puting pandapainting can be very nice, but still, they are posers...
And when one claim to be underground and musicaly very up-to-date, there's a bit of posing in this attitude.

Otherwise, I still don't see what makes DB a pop metal band? If it's because "pop" means "popular", so Metallica, Nightwish, Rammstein, Venom are pop to!

Quote:
OF COURSE it's a poser attitude... but (I fear I'm gonna have some enemies ^^) aren't all the black metalheads that claim to be "true" posers? When metal isn't just a great music but also implies corpsepaint, proper haircut, proper nailed leather accessories etc... it's a little bit of a poser fashion isn't it? I have anything against posers, for the result of 1hour dressing and puting pandapainting can be very nice, but still, they are posers...
And when one claim to be underground and musicaly very up-to-date, there's a bit of posing in this attitude.

I'm afraid I don't understand your point or if this merits a reply from me. Hope not.

Written by Dagorwen on 29.07.2008 at 13:14
Otherwise, I still don't see what makes DB a pop metal band? If it's because "pop" means "popular", so Metallica, Nightwish, Rammstein, Venom are pop to!

Dimmu can be considered "pop metal" because their music is (relative to extreme metal in general) at the most accessible side of the spectrum. It's unchallenging, easy to get into for the metal neophyte, full of catchy symphonic hooks, polished, extreme at times but restrained and organized in a safe way. Much of Metallica can be considered pop metal for the same reason, Nightwish I don't listen to, Rammstein I wouldn't call metal but could be considered on the pop side of industrial/rock, Venom is I think at the inaccessible end of NWOBHM rather than the pop end of extreme metal. If you ask me.

Written by totaliteraliter on 29.07.2008 at 22:42


I'm afraid I don't understand your point or if this merits a reply from me. Hope not.

Written by Dagorwen on 29.07.2008 at 13:14


Well, to sum up: saying "they are so cheesy since they are known" or "they turned popish" or despise the newbies IS a poser attitude, BUT a large part of the metal attitude IS a poser thing, and saying things are "pop" (in a quite despisefull way) because they are "accessible", inplying that the very good stuff is less accessible, is DEFINITELY a very poser attitude! But is the "underground" scene anything else than a hip of posers, despising the crowd and narcissicaly thinking that they understand and feel SO better than the vulgum pecus, that they are "true"?
It wasn't a question, I even tried (in vain) to make it appear as least as possible as a judgement, it's just an observation.
And to finish I shall admit I sometimes enjoy this poser attitude