Written by Dagorwen on 31.07.2008 at 22:02
but isn't the degradation of the music and the "undesirable" stuff largely imagined to? My aim is to understand the reason that make someone criticize the bands he once liked just when they are having success.

I believe this has been answered ad nauseam. Your theory suggests that no correlation between the music's content and the type of person it appeals to exists - nonsense. Bands regularly change in recognizable ways before becoming more popular, some fans see these changes and consider them negative. Others follow the perceptive fans: posers.

Written by totaliteraliter on 31.07.2008 at 22:42

Others follow the perceptive fans: posers.

Some people throw this word around too lightly.

Listening to new Dimmu Borgir music (or any other mainstream or popular band) does not neccessarily qualify one as a poser. People just listen to what they listen to.

Posers are people who've tricked themselves into thinking that listening to bands like Dimmu Borgir make them experts in extreme music..

"I like Dimmu Borgir more than Keep Of Kalessin," is not a poser statement.

"Keep Of Kalessin isn't real black metal, you should try listening to Dimmu Borgir or Cradle of Filth. that's real black metal!" This is a poser statement.

I think it's just that many metalheads are purists and elitist,. they think music is good as long as it's underground or unknown. I personally like many knwon bands (check my signature LOL), and I've always been pretty open minded an listen to many stuff (I've been listeniong Bad Religion lately), so in the end what matter ist's not if a bunch of noobs liek a band like Dimmu Borgir, cause a real fan knows about the band and so on. Afterall, if anyone else, no matter how noob that person is, likes a band I like, I couldn't care less. I liek what I like, wethere if it¡'s chesy or popular or sellout, or whatever.

Written by totaliteraliter on 31.07.2008 at 20:51

Who said intensity was unique to metal? (s/t = self-titled)

Nobody, but you don't seem to think that music which does not appear intense to YOU is good...

Written by totaliteraliter on 31.07.2008 at 20:51

That's a rather shallow viewpoint. And surely you are not arguing that [greater complexity = better music], although that is an implication I am tempted to draw...

No I am not arguing that at all, what I am arguing is that extremity and lack of appeal to the masses does not qualify music as good which is the point you seem to be arguing... and this is just the same old shit black metal twats have been believing for years.

Written by totaliteraliter on 31.07.2008 at 20:51

Sorry, if you don't understand metal by this point you probably never will. I don't think I can help you here.

This is typical metal elitism and ignorance rearing its head. Who are you to decide what metal is all about? Music means many things to many different people, your opinion is no more valid than mine... they are all just opinions of course... unless you know ultimate truth (which you seem to be claiming). I always qualify my statements with my personal experience in order illustrate the point, you on the other hand state everything as fact... So if metal is about being an ignorant and narrow minded, elitist, fool then I will never understand it... (although I'm pretty sure I have been a more active member of the metal scene than you). Also you avoided the point I was making there with that statement because you have no answer to it...

Its those religious ideals in you i mentioned earlier that make you so fanatical about things, but again you chose to ignore that whole statement.

Written by totaliteraliter on 31.07.2008 at 20:51

There's nothing I can say really; this is textbook hipster rambling. Like I said, black metal for people who don't like black metal.

This kind of comment always makes me laugh: "I like BM that is innovative - which is never these days because the moment a band tries something new the entire black metal fraternity accuses them of selling out." Appeals to open-mindedness in the defense of pop metal, what a surprise.

Hipster (this is a new crap meaningless word like emo). I don't like music because of specific genres, that is not what music is about. I like music that appeals to a certain thing in me personally and many black metal bands do (in this case I mean the kind you would call BM)... but I don't like them because they are black metal, thats just stupid.

You say that as though you have already proved Dimmu as pop metal, which you haven't, all you have done is listed your personal taste in music and called it fact.

Again i notice how you chose to ignore entire segments of that paragraph in the original post, why? again because you are unable to answer.

Written by totaliteraliter on 31.07.2008 at 20:51

For example...

You seem to not know an awful lot about a band you seem to feel so strongly about.

Written by totaliteraliter on 31.07.2008 at 20:51

Again, this illustrates the specific appeal of Dimmu. It's not black metal at its most unique and successful, it's black metal with everything unique, ambitious, forward-thinking, dangerous, etc. removed. It's black metal diluted into something safe and familiar.

You have not explained what you mean by dangerous? this is imaginary danger, do you mean by releasing shit music you're in danger of being branded crap? you use words like danger, safe, familiar (I think that any BM band these days sound familiar as it has all been done before in that genre) without qualifying their usage. DB have removed nothing from BM, they have added to it, please explain (without using meaningless words which are only understood by you as mentioned above) what you mean by removing something from BM? what exactly have they removed.

Written by totaliteraliter on 31.07.2008 at 20:51

Thus cleaner, safer, more easily marketable. If you're going to be pedantic at least have an interesting point.

again same words without any explanation attached. why is something being easily marketable a bad thing or cleaner a bad thing? you say all these things in a negative context and never explain why. I don't aim at having interesting points I simply state an opinion which I qualify, you try to hard to be interesting and actualy say nothing.

Written by totaliteraliter on 31.07.2008 at 20:51

Ideas can be expressed through music. Production reflects this. Is this really a foreign concept to you?

No I totaly agree with that. I just can't see how production or the points you make can be described as dangerous, thats silly.

Written by totaliteraliter on 31.07.2008 at 20:51

- you really can't give me a hint as to what eloquent and profound statements Dimmu makes with their music? Not one example?
- please expand upon the compositional differences between Deicide and Dimmu (I hope you aren't going to count riffs...), since you seem to have trouble conveying their compositional superiority thus far.

Aside: I'm not really sure what early Deicide you're referring to, surely not the narrative structure of a song like "Sacrificial Suicide" or the compositional and technical intensity of a song like "Satan Spawn, The Caco-Daemon"...

There are plenty of profound statements in their music, I have already given an indication of where their ideas fall into, but you chose to ignore that statement. It is pointless me listing individual lyrics, as they can easily be taken out of context and again this thread is not here for me to ramble on about DB ideas and concepts and explain my interpretation of them, one small example is not enough.

Look I am not going to write 10 pages and go into musical theory to satisfy you. If you can't hear the superior compositional abilities in DB to Deicide then well I can't say I hold your understanding of music in high regard. (I am not implying here that superior skill means superior music.)

Deicide were good at what they do, I'm not denying that, but it gets to that story in music thing i was talking about which is found in many good classical composers and also in DB, something which deicide do not have, the have unique moments of technical adeptness but as a whole it is completely lacking.

Written by totaliteraliter on 31.07.2008 at 20:51

Wow. Maybe you're just too close minded to appreciate the more esoteric offerings of black metal, maybe you haven't given it a chance, maybe you just prefer your music thematically predictable and obvious? And let me guess, you aren't a John Cage fan. How about Klaus Schulze? Fripp's Soundscapes?

I enjoy a wide variety of obscure music actualy, but that is not the debate here. Yet again you have made a statement about my tastes in music, of which you know very little, and not addressed that statement I actualy made to which you quote and you have also entered the age old internet idiocy of listing bands without saying anything about them.

Written by totaliteraliter on 31.07.2008 at 20:51

I wasn't suggesting you equated polished with good music, you have enough shallow ideas about music that I have no need to invent new ones to accuse you of. I was merely working to debunk your rather asinine primal/intelligent music distinction.

Your ideas are far more shallow ie: (A band is pop because its not extreme and appeals to a larger group of people than is usualy acceptable in the genre it claims to be of).

You did not debunk anything, how does commenting on polished bands have anything to do with the primal/intelligent debate. you're confusing the two ideas.

Written by totaliteraliter on 31.07.2008 at 20:51

I didn't realize that was my position.

three times and still no answer.... yet again you make statements with qualifying them.

When you start talking about what metal is and an understanding of it, we are going back to the ridiculousness of this conversation: http://www.metalstorm.ee/forum/topic.php?topic_id=9088

Written by Stuart on 01.08.2008 at 03:13
Nobody, but you don't seem to think that music which does not appear intense to YOU is good...

False, you misinterpret me.

Written by Stuart on 01.08.2008 at 03:13
No I am not arguing that at all, what I am arguing is that extremity and lack of appeal to the masses does not qualify music as good which is the point you seem to be arguing... and this is just the same old shit black metal twats have been believing for years.

That is not at all a point I am arguing.

Written by Stuart on 01.08.2008 at 03:13
This is typical metal elitism and ignorance rearing its head. Who are you to decide what metal is all about? Music means many things to many different people, your opinion is no more valid than mine... they are all just opinions of course... unless you know ultimate truth (which you seem to be claiming).

Relativism? All interpretations are equal? You're definitely hopeless in this area.

Written by Stuart on 01.08.2008 at 03:13
I always qualify my statements with my personal experience in order illustrate the point, you on the other hand state everything as fact... So if metal is about being an ignorant and narrow minded, elitist, fool then I will never understand it...

I am talking about metal, not my opinion of it.

Written by Stuart on 01.08.2008 at 03:13
(although I'm pretty sure I have been a more active member of the metal scene than you).

Ooh, I'm impressed. What makes you say that?

Written by Stuart on 01.08.2008 at 03:13
Also you avoided the point I was making there with that statement because you have no answer to it...

Its those religious ideals in you i mentioned earlier that make you so fanatical about things, but again you chose to ignore that whole statement.

There's nothing to answer. Your incredible attitude of egocentric apathy displayed in the statement in question shows utter incompatibility with the basic ideas of metal.

Written by Stuart on 01.08.2008 at 03:13
Hipster (this is a new crap meaningless word like emo).

It has a well defined meaning: people who dismiss a genre while embracing the populizers who take the aesthetics and combine them with ideas suitable for mass appeal. The hipster sayeth: "[metal genre] was immature crap until the brilliant [Dimmu Borgir/Opeth/Wolves In The Throne Room/etc.] came along and brought it to a higher level of artistic brilliance."

Written by Stuart on 01.08.2008 at 03:13
I don't like music because of specific genres, that is not what music is about. I like music that appeals to a certain thing in me personally and many black metal bands do (in this case I mean the kind you would call BM)... but I don't like them because they are black metal, thats just stupid.

Don't understand relevance of this...

Written by Stuart on 01.08.2008 at 03:13
You say that as though you have already proved Dimmu as pop metal, which you haven't, all you have done is listed your personal taste in music and called it fact.

I have listed the conditions under which a band may be considered "pop meta", and shown that Dimm Borgir fits these conditions. What more do you want?

Written by Stuart on 01.08.2008 at 03:13
Again i notice how you chose to ignore entire segments of that paragraph in the original post, why? again because you are unable to answer.

No, because I did not see anything relevant enough to merit a reply. If you have a pressing issue I have ignored, perhaps you can rephrase or repeat it.

Written by Stuart on 01.08.2008 at 03:13
You seem to not know an awful lot about a band you seem to feel so strongly about.

No, I just haven't found anything from them that I would consider remotely profound. I'm wondering what lyrics of theirs get a fanboy excited, but you seem committed to dodging this issue...

Written by Stuart on 01.08.2008 at 03:13
You have not explained what you mean by dangerous? this is imaginary danger, do you mean by releasing shit music you're in danger of being branded crap? you use words like danger, safe, familiar (I think that any BM band these days sound familiar as it has all been done before in that genre) without qualifying their usage. DB have removed nothing from BM, they have added to it, please explain (without using meaningless words which are only understood by you as mentioned above) what you mean by removing something from BM? what exactly have they removed.

Dangerous: edgy, taboo, controversial, etc.
Safe: acceptable, expected, routine, etc.
Familiar: in this case, giving fans what they expect from music in general, creating music that fits the accepted standards laid out by other established groups, rather than pursuing a path more original or challenging to the listener.

Dimmu have removed the rawness, they have replaced honest rebellion and iconoclasm and hate and desire for freedom with theatre, they have turned their backs on the reasons that black metal strived for primal minimalism in the first place: they have embraced the shallow decay, the technicality and decoration and flamboyance that motivated the musical foundation of black metal in the first place. They have added a slick commercial passage and plenty of catchy symphonic hooks, they have embraced the outsider's caricature of black metal, they are rock stars instead of artists...

Written by Stuart on 01.08.2008 at 03:13
again same words without any explanation attached. why is something being easily marketable a bad thing or cleaner a bad thing? you say all these things in a negative context and never explain why. I don't aim at having interesting points I simply state an opinion which I qualify, you try to hard to be interesting and actualy say nothing.

These elements are not inherently negative, the issue is that certain artists accrue a great number of them on their path to popularity. And each of these elements (marketable et al.) makes it harder to fit in worthwhile artistic content.

Written by Stuart on 01.08.2008 at 03:13
No I totaly agree with that. I just can't see how production or the points you make can be described as dangerous, thats silly.

Music has ideas. The production can (if the artist knows what they are doing) reflects those ideas. Dangerous ideas call for dangerous ideas. Sterile, clean, or polished production does not lend itself to the expression of dangerous ideas.

Written by Stuart on 01.08.2008 at 03:13
There are plenty of profound statements in their music, I have already given an indication of where their ideas fall into, but you chose to ignore that statement...

Where? Can you provide us with one of these many profound statements? You have made very strong and derogatory remarks ("lyrically they are miles ahead of 99% of black metal bands") while doing exactly nothing to back them up. I'd like to see you make the shift from fanboy gushing to debate.

Written by Stuart on 01.08.2008 at 03:13
Look I am not going to write 10 pages and go into musical theory to satisfy you. If you can't hear the superior compositional abilities in DB to Deicide then well I can't say I hold your understanding of music in high regard. (I am not implying here that superior skill means superior music.)

Deicide were good at what they do, I'm not denying that, but it gets to that story in music thing i was talking about which is found in many good classical composers and also in DB, something which deicide do not have, the have unique moments of technical adeptness but as a whole it is completely lacking.

Without examples, this really doesn't tell me anything. I wouldn't think it'd be hard to point out a few features found in their music that are so superior, since the superiority is so obvious to you. Because all I hear is tired and sugary pop metal, I want to know what greatness I am missing out on.

Written by Stuart on 01.08.2008 at 03:13
I enjoy a wide variety of obscure music actualy, but that is not the debate here. Yet again you have made a statement about my tastes in music, of which you know very little, and not addressed that statement I actualy made to which you quote and you have also entered the age old internet idiocy of listing bands without saying anything about them.

I didn't think I needed to preface the mention of those fairly well known artists. If I had, I'm sure you would see the direct relevance to your statement: these are artists, like Burzum or Spear Of Longinus, who express creative, intelligent, esoteric, "thinking man's" stuff through fairly simplistic and primitive music.

Written by Stuart on 01.08.2008 at 03:13
Your ideas are far more shallow ie: (A band is pop because its not extreme and appeals to a larger group of people than is usualy acceptable in the genre it claims to be of).

Um, shallow? If analyzing art on a more holistic level than superficial sonic characteristics before categorizing it into a specific artistic movement is shallow, the I guess so... I don't really see the problem of referring to music with pop characteristics as pop. And please be sure to note that I am not arguing [pop music = bad music].

Written by Stuart on 01.08.2008 at 03:13
You did not debunk anything, how does commenting on polished bands have anything to do with the primal/intelligent debate. you're confusing the two ideas.

You've lost me.

Written by Stuart on 01.08.2008 at 03:13
three times and still no answer.... yet again you make statements with qualifying them.

Yet again you attribute to me a statement I did not make.

Written by Stuart on 01.08.2008 at 03:13
When you start talking about what metal is and an understanding of it, we are going back to the ridiculousness of this conversation: http://www.metalstorm.ee/forum/topic.php?topic_id=9088

If only I'd remembered that debate was with you, I would perhaps have avoided an extended debate with a hipster over a genre he has an insufficient and horribly distorted understanding of. Oh well, I'm committed now.

wow, YESSS!
Dimmu Borgir are the biggest band of this kind for me!
it almost makes me wanna cry :'(

Offtopic: Stuart's and totaliterater's are probably the longest posts I've ever seen

Written by totaliteraliter on 01.08.2008 at 05:00

False, you misinterpret me.

Really because you seem to list things in music you find impressive and then state that is why it is good music even though other people may find the same elements undesirable, as you put it.

Written by totaliteraliter on 01.08.2008 at 05:00
That is not at all a point I am arguing.

So will there ever be a good BM band in your opinion that can sell more than 50,000 albums? is it possible?

Written by totaliteraliter on 01.08.2008 at 05:00

Relativism? All interpretations are equal? You're definitely hopeless in this area.

No, I did not say that. You misunderstand... You seem to think that anybody who has done enough homework on an issue will naturaly agree with you. This is not the case, all opinions that are based on sufficient study are equal irrespective of how they may differ, normaly fools don't indulge in sufficient study so they do not enter the fold...

Written by totaliteraliter on 01.08.2008 at 05:00

I am talking about metal, not my opinion of it.

Again you claim that there are core ideologies (back to the other thread i linked earlier) in metal you seem to be privy to. This is not the case.

Written by totaliteraliter on 01.08.2008 at 05:00

Ooh, I'm impressed. What makes you say that?

It was this college party reference, which doesn't say much for how you participate in "the scene", i hope this is not the source of your information:

Written by totaliteraliter on 28.04.2008 at 08:34

Metal parties/concerts vs. regular college parties/concerts exude distinct cultures, different acceptable behaviors and viewpoints and personality types. The discourse at metal parties is always distinct from elsewhere,

Written by totaliteraliter on 01.08.2008 at 05:00

There's nothing to answer. Your incredible attitude of egocentric apathy displayed in the statement in question shows utter incompatibility with the basic ideas of metal.

There are no basic ideas in metal. It is too broad a genre containing too many standpoints.

Written by totaliteraliter on 01.08.2008 at 05:00

It has a well defined meaning: people who dismiss a genre while embracing the populizers who take the aesthetics and combine them with ideas suitable for mass appeal. The hipster sayeth: "[metal genre] was immature crap until the brilliant [Dimmu Borgir/Opeth/Wolves In The Throne Room/etc.] came along and brought it to a higher level of artistic brilliance."

I have never dismissed any genre. what I was saying was that BM basicaly comprised of teenage ineptitude to fit into society, which is not a bad thing but that bands like DB expanded on those topics. In their own right the original topics are still very valid, but to live an entire life stuck at that point is rather sad.

Written by totaliteraliter on 01.08.2008 at 05:00

Don't understand relevance of this...

The relevance being that you seem to think DB is BM for people who don't like BM, when rather it is BM for people who do not fanatically follow its distinct rules or are narrow minded about them.

Written by totaliteraliter on 01.08.2008 at 05:00

I have listed the conditions under which a band may be considered "pop meta", and shown that Dimm Borgir fits these conditions. What more do you want?

Yet again you have stated your opinion and again you seem to think music is governed by rules (or conditions), this is very limiting to one's growth as a person and the ability to appreciate a broader variety of indulgences. I hope you don't live your entire life by categorizing everything. For me pop metal is more like say... Motley Crue or Def Lepperd as it has the traits of greatly popular music and is considered by some as metal (its just shit to me). Lets not forget DB are not actualy that popular in the greater scheme of things.

Written by totaliteraliter on 01.08.2008 at 05:00

No, because I did not see anything relevant enough to merit a reply. If you have a pressing issue I have ignored, perhaps you can rephrase or repeat it.

The inability to answer rather than the merit of the statement. Forget it, I'm not going back to it, you're lack of comment has already said enough.

Written by totaliteraliter on 01.08.2008 at 05:00

No, I just haven't found anything from them that I would consider remotely profound. I'm wondering what lyrics of theirs get a fanboy excited, but you seem committed to dodging this issue...

Profound lyrically in the sense that they analyze the reasons behind things intelligently from a different perspective to most and deliver it in a style and fashion that nails the point home to people who would not normaly look at things from an alternate perspective, maybe a better way to put it is that they play the soundtrack with the necessary accompanying words of ideologies which are usually misconstrued by most people in the metal or alternative sub-cultures, whilst introducing people not from these sub-cultures to the other ideas which are unique to a darker side of humanity. basicaly their lyrics prompt you to think for yourself as opposed to preaching to you like most BM bands, I am against preaching and I find anything that helps people think for themselves profound. Not profound in the sense as they have made great philosophical revelations, as nobody has done that for many decades...

The discussion which would ensue and debate over specific lyrics would be simply too time consuming for me to quote any however, if you are truly interested I've heard they are easy to find, although you must realise they are written to accompany music not as poetry for reading. I seriously doubt you have the inclination or will to do the necessary study as I'm sure your mind is already made up... its this close mindedness which is typical of the black metal elitist.

Written by totaliteraliter on 01.08.2008 at 05:00

Dangerous: edgy, taboo, controversial, etc.
Safe: acceptable, expected, routine, etc.
Familiar: in this case, giving fans what they expect from music in general, creating music that fits the accepted standards laid out by other established groups, rather than pursuing a path more original or challenging to the listener.

Dimmu have removed the rawness, they have replaced honest rebellion and iconoclasm and hate and desire for freedom with theatre, they have turned their backs on the reasons that black metal strived for primal minimalism in the first place: they have embraced the shallow decay, the technicality and decoration and flamboyance that motivated the musical foundation of black metal in the first place. They have added a slick commercial passage and plenty of catchy symphonic hooks, they have embraced the outsider's caricature of black metal, they are rock stars instead of artists...

EDIT: (missed this one) all BM bands which are consider BM by the eltists are incredibly predictable, this a something quite obvious in BM. So they are really very routine.

If you want rawness OK, thats fine you might not like DB, but this does not make them a poor band, its just not what you're looking for, I can understand that perfectly, its the the inaccuracies people attribute to bands like them which I find bizarre.

Don't compare them with something they're listen to them for what they are.

Written by totaliteraliter on 01.08.2008 at 05:00

These elements are not inherently negative, the issue is that certain artists accrue a great number of them on their path to popularity. And each of these elements (marketable et al.) makes it harder to fit in worthwhile artistic content.

Bah crap, look actual art apart from music, if you transferred all the characteristics from that you have been mentioning from music to art (as in great painters etc...), you would find that many great artists bare these characteristics (i mean what is more marketable than Salvador Dali) and you would realise that these things are not negative irrespective of the quanitity of these traits attributed to an individual artist, people just have this thing that metal must be underground, I have no idea why, well actualy I do, because it makes them think that they know something that everyone else doesn't and hence are more enlightened. What a ridiculous concept.

Written by totaliteraliter on 01.08.2008 at 05:00

Music has ideas. The production can (if the artist knows what they are doing) reflects those ideas. Dangerous ideas call for dangerous ideas. Sterile, clean, or polished production does not lend itself to the expression of dangerous ideas.

Yeah I agree totaly that production does help put ideas across. Thus DB create a production to suite the concepts they sing about. Maybe you fail to grasp these concepts (I hope this is due to lack of study, all good music takes study and does not come immediately, whilst I agree alot DB fans are just after their epic kick, this says more about them than about DB) and hence fail grasp the production. Dangerous ideas come in all formats, dangerous ideas are not unique to rawness of production in music.

I always thought Dani Filth's vocals (in the early cradle days, not now) were pretty intense and extreme and what you would call dangerous but I guess thats not something you would agree with although I doubt you can find a reason to dispute this.

Written by totaliteraliter on 01.08.2008 at 05:00

Without examples, this really doesn't tell me anything. I wouldn't think it'd be hard to point out a few features found in their music that are so superior, since the superiority is so obvious to you. Because all I hear is tired and sugary pop metal, I want to know what greatness I am missing out on.

This is based on lack of looking for something good in it, not on the fact that their is nothing good in it.

Written by totaliteraliter on 01.08.2008 at 05:00

I didn't think I needed to preface the mention of those fairly well known artists. If I had, I'm sure you would see the direct relevance to your statement: these are artists, like Burzum or Spear Of Longinus, who express creative, intelligent, esoteric, "thinking man's" stuff through fairly simplistic and primitive music.

Not really.

Written by totaliteraliter on 01.08.2008 at 05:00

Um, shallow? If analyzing art on a more holistic level than superficial sonic characteristics before categorizing it into a specific artistic movement is shallow, the I guess so... I don't really see the problem of referring to music with pop characteristics as pop. And please be sure to note that I am not arguing [pop music = bad music].

It doesn't have Pop characteristics, this is your opinion without any sound basis. I haven't really catagorized anything into an artistic movement that is what you have been doing, I'm not into genre definition because I don't care about genre, i just like meaningful music.

Written by totaliteraliter on 01.08.2008 at 05:00

You've lost me.

Not surprising.

Written by totaliteraliter on 01.08.2008 at 05:00

Yet again you attribute to me a statement I did not make.

I can't put the question anymore bluntly and yet still you seem to deny implying that polished was a bad thing without clarifying why.

Written by Stuart on 01.08.2008 at 03:13
When you start talking about what metal is and an understanding of it, we are going back to the ridiculousness of this conversation: http://www.metalstorm.ee/forum/topic.php?topic_id=9088

Written by totaliteraliter on 01.08.2008 at 05:00
:lol: If only I'd remembered that debate was with you, I would perhaps have avoided an extended debate with a hipster over a genre he has an insufficient and horribly distorted understanding of. Oh well, I'm committed now.

...and we still seem to heading for same ground unfortunately.

Made a slight effort to organize discussion and cut down on length, please advise me if anything got lost in the shuffle...

Written by Stuart on 02.08.2008 at 00:02

Written by totaliteraliter on 01.08.2008 at 05:00
I didn't think I needed to preface the mention of those fairly well known artists. If I had, I'm sure you would see the direct relevance to your statement: these are artists, like Burzum or Spear Of Longinus, who express creative, intelligent, esoteric, "thinking man's" stuff through fairly simplistic and primitive music.

Not really.

This incredible display of close-mindedness tempts me to throw in the towel here and now. Dismissing John Cage and Robert fucking Fripp out of hand?

Written by Stuart on 02.08.2008 at 00:02
Really because you seem to list things in music you find impressive and then state that is why it is good music even though other people may find the same elements undesirable, as you put it.

I believe I've been mainly keeping to relatively objective indicators of quality.

Written by Stuart on 02.08.2008 at 00:02
So will there ever be a good BM band in your opinion that can sell more than 50,000 albums? is it possible?

Why not? There are plenty of great artists who have mass appeal without sacrificing the integrity of their art.

Written by Stuart on 02.08.2008 at 00:02
No, I did not say that. You misunderstand... You seem to think that anybody who has done enough homework on an issue will naturaly agree with you. This is not the case, all opinions that are based on sufficient study are equal irrespective of how they may differ, normaly fools don't indulge in sufficient study so they do not enter the fold...
...
Again you claim that there are core ideologies (back to the other thread i linked earlier) in metal you seem to be privy to. This is not the case.
...
There are no basic ideas in metal. It is too broad a genre containing too many standpoints.

They exist despite the denials of the hipsters and the apologists. From what I recall your arguments against such a concept relied largely on an unreasonable standard of uniformity in these ideals for their existence to be acknowledged, ie. the existence of varied fringe ideologies as an argument against the possibility of core ones existing. Rather flawed from a logical standpoint.

Written by Stuart on 02.08.2008 at 00:02
It was this college party reference, which doesn't say much for how you participate in "the scene", i hope this is not the source of your information:

Written by totaliteraliter on 28.04.2008 at 08:34
Metal parties/concerts vs. regular college parties/concerts exude distinct cultures, different acceptable behaviors and viewpoints and personality types. The discourse at metal parties is always distinct from elsewhere,

I don't see what that tells you about me other than that I frequent parties and concerts with fellow metal fans.

Written by Stuart on 02.08.2008 at 00:02
I have never dismissed any genre. what I was saying was that BM basicaly comprised of teenage ineptitude to fit into society, which is not a bad thing but that bands like DB expanded on those topics. In their own right the original topics are still very valid, but to live an entire life stuck at that point is rather sad.

You claim not to dismiss a genre yet do exactly that in the next sentence.

Written by Stuart on 02.08.2008 at 00:02
The relevance being that you seem to think DB is BM for people who don't like BM, when rather it is BM for people who do not fanatically follow its distinct rules or are narrow minded about them.

Right, casual fans, hipsters, people who aren't big into black metal. Black metal for people who don't like black metal.

Written by Stuart on 02.08.2008 at 00:02
Yet again you have stated your opinion and again you seem to think music is governed by rules (or conditions), this is very limiting to one's growth as a person and the ability to appreciate a broader variety of indulgences. I hope you don't live your entire life by categorizing everything. For me pop metal is more like say... Motley Crue or Def Lepperd as it has the traits of greatly popular music and is considered by some as metal (its just shit to me). Lets not forget DB are not actualy that popular in the greater scheme of things.

If you would recall that I have stated the descriptor of "pop metal" is applied to Dimmu Borgir accurately when speaking *relatively*, you'd understand the irrelevance of some of these statements. I do not understand how preferring to use an accurate typology of favoured music styles would limit my appreciation of anything.

Written by Stuart on 02.08.2008 at 00:02
The inability to answer rather than the merit of the statement. Forget it, I'm not going back to it, you're lack of comment has already said enough.

Only about the lack of clarity in your statements. Please do not characterize my failed attempts at interpreting your posts as debate victories for yourself, it's disingenuous.

Written by Stuart on 02.08.2008 at 00:02
This is based on lack of looking for something good in it, not on the fact that their is nothing good in it.
...
Profound lyrically in the sense that they analyze the reasons behind things intelligently from a different perspective to most and deliver it in a style and fashion that nails the point home to people who would not normaly look at things from an alternate perspective, maybe a better way to put it is that they play the soundtrack with the necessary accompanying words of ideologies which are usually misconstrued by most people in the metal or alternative sub-cultures, whilst introducing people not from these sub-cultures to the other ideas which are unique to a darker side of humanity. basicaly their lyrics prompt you to think for yourself as opposed to preaching to you like most BM bands, I am against preaching and I find anything that helps people think for themselves profound. Not profound in the sense as they have made great philosophical revelations, as nobody has done that for many decades...

The discussion which would ensue and debate over specific lyrics would be simply too time consuming for me to quote any however, if you are truly interested I've heard they are easy to find, although you must realise they are written to accompany music not as poetry for reading. I seriously doubt you have the inclination or will to do the necessary study as I'm sure your mind is already made up... its this close mindedness which is typical of the black metal elitist.

Do not blame *your* inability to back up *your* assertions on my alleged close-mindedness. You keep talking about the ways in which they are different from and superior to most as if it is the most obvious thing in the world, yet refuse to provide any analysis to help others see what you see.

Written by Stuart on 02.08.2008 at 00:02
EDIT: (missed this one) all BM bands which are consider BM by the eltists are incredibly predictable, this a something quite obvious in BM. So they are really very routine.

Go listen to Yamatu or Spear Of Longinus or Black Funeral or rehtaF ruO or Abruptum or Opthalamia or Impaled Nazarene or Summoning or Niden Div 187 or Von or Emperor, perhaps? Certainly there is plenty of stuff a long way off from the standard 2nd wave Norway sound, if that's what you're after.

Written by Stuart on 02.08.2008 at 00:02
If you want rawness OK, thats fine you might not like DB, but this does not make them a poor band, its just not what you're looking for, I can understand that perfectly, its the the inaccuracies people attribute to bands like them which I find bizarre.

Don't compare them with something they're listen to them for what they are.

Strange how you are adamant in claiming they are black metal, then.

Written by Stuart on 02.08.2008 at 00:02
Bah crap, look actual art apart from music, if you transferred all the characteristics from that you have been mentioning from music to art (as in great painters etc...), you would find that many great artists bare these characteristics (i mean what is more marketable than Salvador Dali) and you would realise that these things are not negative irrespective of the quanitity of these traits attributed to an individual artist, people just have this thing that metal must be underground, I have no idea why, well actualy I do, because it makes them think that they know something that everyone else doesn't and hence are more enlightened. What a ridiculous concept.

And people only listen to Dimmu Borgir because they're so trendy. Perhaps we can avoid the childish stereotypes?

I can't believe you would argue that marketability is never detrimental. Have you not heard the songwriting-by-committee commercial pap that populates top 40 radio these days?

Written by Stuart on 02.08.2008 at 00:02
Yeah I agree totaly that production does help put ideas across. Thus DB create a production to suite the concepts they sing about. Maybe you fail to grasp these concepts (I hope this is due to lack of study, all good music takes study and does not come immediately, whilst I agree alot DB fans are just after their epic kick, this says more about them than about DB) and hence fail grasp the production. Dangerous ideas come in all formats, dangerous ideas are not unique to rawness of production in music.

Since you agree, perhaps you would like to discuss how Dimmu's production helps enhance their communication of ideas?

Written by Stuart on 02.08.2008 at 00:02
I always thought Dani Filth's vocals (in the early cradle days, not now) were pretty intense and extreme and what you would call dangerous but I guess thats not something you would agree with although I doubt you can find a reason to dispute this.

He is a rather extreme vocalist. Why would I disagree with that?

Written by Stuart on 02.08.2008 at 00:02
It doesn't have Pop characteristics, this is your opinion without any sound basis. I haven't really catagorized anything into an artistic movement that is what you have been doing, I'm not into genre definition because I don't care about genre, i just like meaningful music.

You are awfully defensive about genre for someone who doesn't care about it. It does indeed have pop characteristics, correct me but I believe you've been arguing that these characteristics are not negative, not that Dimmu doesn't have them?

Written by Stuart on 02.08.2008 at 00:02
I can't put the question anymore bluntly and yet still you seem to deny implying that polished was a bad thing without clarifying why.

I have not intended to imply that polished is an inherently detrimental characteristic for music to have, I may have been unclear or you may have misinterpreted. Is that what you wanted clarified?

What defines "well known" anyway? Sure, virtually every member on this website knows Dimmu Borgir, Cradle of Filth, Iron Maiden, James Hetfield and the Metallicas, Led Zeppelin, Dream Theater, Opeth, Black Sabbath and Nightwish, but walk down the street and how many people would recognize those bands? Some people might know that that guy Led Zepellin is a good guitarist and that Mr. Sabbath sang the Iron Man song, but that is about it. Working with a lot of teenagers they all seem to know Dragonforce but have never heard of Sonata Arctica. Or they know that the guy from Fear Factory has a Slipknot tattoo on his arm.

Beyond that, how well know are any these bands? Even within specific Metal communities some bands are know while others are not. How many Black Metal fans know Sleepytime Gorilla Museum? I have close to three months of Metal on my iTunes right now, but I really don't know much about Dimmu Borgir, other than they are some sort of Symphonic Black Metal band. Does that mean they are known or unknown?

I could have gotten all upset when Three made a music video and was featured on eMpTyV because they were going to get know but what is the point? If some 13 year old kid sees that music video, really digs it and gets into the band, I say that is good. Maybe it will open the door for him to learn about bands like King Crimson or Riverside. Does that make Three cheesy now not someone other than for me knows them?

Then again there is always...

Written by Dane Train on 02.08.2008 at 01:18
What defines "well known" anyway? Sure, virtually every member on this website knows Dimmu Borgir, Cradle of Filth, Iron Maiden, James Hetfield and the Metallicas, Led Zeppelin, Dream Theater, Opeth, Black Sabbath and Nightwish, but walk down the street and how many people would recognize those bands? Some people might know that that guy Led Zepellin is a good guitarist and that Mr. Sabbath sang the Iron Man song, but that is about it. Working with a lot of teenagers they all seem to know Dragonforce but have never heard of Sonata Arctica. Or they know that the guy from Fear Factory has a Slipknot tattoo on his arm.

Beyond that, how well know are any these bands? Even within specific Metal communities some bands are know while others are not. How many Black Metal fans know Sleepytime Gorilla Museum? I have close to three months of Metal on my iTunes right now, but I really don't know much about Dimmu Borgir, other than they are some sort of Symphonic Black Metal band. Does that mean they are known or unknown?

This is why we're talking in relative terms, sure most metal bands aren't popular in "in the big scheme of things", but as an essentially underground genre "the big scheme of things" is irrelevant. Dimmu Borgir is the most popular black metal(ish) band, going by last.fm (which is of course skewed towards certain listeners, ie. computer literate ones, but the stats are great fun to play around with) they're more than twice as popular as the next contender (Burzum) and 50-100 times as popular as underground darlings like Averse Sefira.

Regarding the ongoing discussion here, popularity isn't really arguable as the ultimate factor in the acceptance of bands by the metal community. Keeping with the same last.fm stats, look at a band like 1349: poorly regarded by the underground black metal community, yet only about half as popular as well-respected Immortal, Darkthrone and Burzum.

And fwiw I think Sleepytime Gorilla Museum is probably fairly well-known in a lot of the metal world; they are on The End which is a very popular distro for fans of all genres. Personally I don't listen to that kind of music at all yet I still get regular stock updates from The End which regularly encourage me to buy the new SGM record. Point taken but I think any serious fan of a specific metal subgenre will be vaguely familiar with the popular artists in other styles of metal.

Written by totaliteraliter on 02.08.2008 at 01:10

I can't believe you would argue that marketability is never detrimental. Have you not heard the songwriting-by-committee commercial pap that populates top 40 radio these days?

marketability doesn't necessarily downgrade the band/artist.. there are bands well-known to the general public which produce high quality metal like Black Sabbath or Iron Maiden, there are other bands known only to the metal public which produce quality music like Ensiferum or Amon Amarth, and of course there are the underground bands, out of which, quite honestly, not all is good stuff. so you don't really have to compromise artistic merit(how do you objectively define artistic merit in the first place?) to get the extra buck.

Written by totaliteraliter on 02.08.2008 at 01:10

Since you agree, perhaps you would like to discuss how Dimmu's production helps enhance their communication of ideas?

subtlety mostly... for example a certain part, more quiet than the rest of the song, has a background piano piece, to help set the atmosphere, whereas with shitty production it would simply be filled with background noise, and that (to me at least) doesn't quite provide any atmosphere, sometimes it actually annoys me lol

Written by totaliteraliter on 02.08.2008 at 19:01

Regarding the ongoing discussion here, popularity isn't really arguable as the ultimate factor in the acceptance of bands by the metal community.

So what makes a band acceptable? This seems like it could be a double edged sword here. For example; Dream Theater is one of the most beloved and hated Metal bands ever. I'll fully admit I am a Dream Theater fanboy (Ytse Jammers as we are called) with over 4 days of their music, posters, t-shirts and even tats. And I am not alone in this dedication. I have never seen a band with fans this dedicated for this long, except for maybe Iron Maiden. At the same time I know so many Metalheads who think they are the worst band ever and ridicule everything they do (I have actually read reviews saying I&W is the worst album in Metal history!).

So how does a band like that stack up for acceptance?

Written by Dane Train on 02.08.2008 at 20:03
So what makes a band acceptable? This seems like it could be a double edged sword here. For example; Dream Theater is one of the most beloved and hated Metal bands ever. I'll fully admit I am a Dream Theater fanboy (Ytse Jammers as we are called) with over 4 days of their music, posters, t-shirts and even tats. And I am not alone in this dedication. I have never seen a band with fans this dedicated for this long, except for maybe Iron Maiden. At the same time I know so many Metalheads who think they are the worst band ever and ridicule everything they do (I have actually read reviews saying I&W is the worst album in Metal history!).

So how does a band like that stack up for acceptance?

Beats me, Dream Theater have never been remotely relevant to any sort of metal I've ever been interested in. From what I've seen they're more accepted in and talked about prog rock and guitarist/musician circles, and I guess the "progressive" metal scene although I try to stay away from that stuff so I couldn't really say. Their appeal doesn't really seem to transcend genres and appeal to fans of different styles the way Slayer or Maiden or Sabbath do. It's hard to say whether a band is accepted by the metal scene in general. Dream Theater might be more "accepted" since from what I understand they're well liked by most prog metal folks, whereas a bands like Dimmu and Opeth are popular and have their share of fanboys but are largely dismissed by black and death metal purists, respectively.

Written by totaliteraliter on 02.08.2008 at 20:26

Their appeal doesn't really seem to transcend genres and appeal to fans of different styles the way Slayer or Maiden or Sabbath do.

There is where I would disagree. One thing I have always admired about them is the way they do transend genres and fans. If you just look at the bands they have toured with it is clear that they actually play to a very wide audience. They have played with Opeth, Between The Buried and Me, Iron Maiden, Fear Factory, Deep Purple, Megadeth, In Flames, Slayer, Napalm Death, Pantera, Anthrax, Emerson Lake and Palmer, The Galaxic Cowboys, Joe Satriani, King's X, Fates Warning, Marillion, Dixie Dregs, Pain of Salvation, Porcupine Tree, Drykill Logic, Queensrÿche, Riverside, Spock's Beard, Three, Enchant, Symphony X, Bobaflex, Life of Agony, The Dillenger Escape Plan, and Yes...plus others.

Written by Dane Train on 02.08.2008 at 22:06

Written by totaliteraliter on 02.08.2008 at 20:26

Their appeal doesn't really seem to transcend genres and appeal to fans of different styles the way Slayer or Maiden or Sabbath do.

There is where I would disagree. One thing I have always admired about them is the way they do transend genres and fans. If you just look at the bands they have toured with it is clear that they actually play to a very wide audience. They have played with Opeth, Between The Buried and Me, Iron Maiden, Fear Factory, Deep Purple, Megadeth, In Flames, Slayer, Napalm Death, Pantera, Anthrax, Emerson Lake and Palmer, The Galaxic Cowboys, Joe Satriani, King's X, Fates Warning, Marillion, Dixie Dregs, Pain of Salvation, Porcupine Tree, Drykill Logic, Queensrÿche, Riverside, Spock's Beard, Three, Enchant, Symphony X, Bobaflex, Life of Agony, The Dillenger Escape Plan, and Yes...plus others.

So they tour with mainly prog bands, and some other popular metal acts. Can't say I really see your point. And when was this Dream Theater/Slayer tour?

But I was referring more to the underground scene, the purists with that comparison. As in, no matter how far underground you go in death metal or thrash metal or whatever, pretty much everyone still loves Black Sabbath. Dream Theater, not so much.

Written by totaliteraliter on 02.08.2008 at 22:21

So they tour with mainly prog bands, and some other popular metal acts. Can't say I really see your point. And when was this Dream Theater/Slayer tour?

But I was referring more to the underground scene, the purists with that comparison. As in, no matter how far underground you go in death metal or thrash metal or whatever, pretty much everyone still loves Black Sabbath. Dream Theater, not so much.

What constitutes "underground"? That word is thrown out there all the time. I have heard the term "underground" to describe Metal bands from At The Gates to Bestir from Evergrey to Icewater Mansion.

Of course more people are going to like Black Sabbath and Dream Theater. First reason is Black Sabbath is better known than Dream Theater. Second, most Metalheads are expected to like Black Sabbath. Just watch MTV and VH1, those guys masturbate to Black Sabbath all the time. It has become this statute almost that in order to be a Metalhead you must like Black Sabbath. Third, Dream Theater creates a type of music that most people just don't understand. Besides, you're just looking at Death and Thrash Metal, not an area where Dream Theater really caters too, where if you look at other styles of Metal, Dream Theater tends to be more liked than Black Sabbath.

But anyway, back to the point of this thread?what determines if a band is popular or not? Where I live a band like Porcupine Tree is extremely popular but many people have not even heard of Dimmu Borgir. In fact, I can't say I have even heard any of their music.


P.S. In 1996 or 1997 Slayer, Pantera and Dream Theater played together in Itally.

Written by Dane Train on 02.08.2008 at 23:05
What constitutes "underground"? That word is thrown out there all the time. I have heard the term "underground" to describe Metal bands from At The Gates to Bestir from Evergrey to Icewater Mansion.

Of course more people are going to like Black Sabbath and Dream Theater. First reason is Black Sabbath is better known than Dream Theater. Second, most Metalheads are expected to like Black Sabbath. Just watch MTV and VH1, those guys masturbate to Black Sabbath all the time. It has become this statute almost that in order to be a Metalhead you must like Black Sabbath. Third, Dream Theater creates a type of music that most people just don't understand. Besides, you're just looking at Death and Thrash Metal, not an area where Dream Theater really caters too, where if you look at other styles of Metal, Dream Theater tends to be more liked than Black Sabbath.

But anyway, back to the point of this thread?what determines if a band is popular or not? Where I live a band like Porcupine Tree is extremely popular but many people have not even heard of Dimmu Borgir. In fact, I can't say I have even heard any of their music.


P.S. In 1996 or 1997 Slayer, Pantera and Dream Theater played together in Itally.

By underground I mean (vaguely) bands outside of major labels and bigger indie labels, bands that don't really get ads in magazines etc. but are pretty much exclusively known by word or mouth and/or touring. Speaking just in terms of popularity (and within the metal scene) Dream Theater and Dimmu Borgir and Burzum and At The Gates and Black Sabbath could all be considered mainstream, Arghoslent and Averse Sefira underground, then below that there are the obscure and the unknown... not that any of this is precise or scientific, just trying to illustrate the vocabulary I'm using (and I think is not uncommon in discourse among metalheads).

What determines how popular a band is? In most basic terms, the amount of people that listen to them.

re: Sabbath vs Dream Theater
The better known point is kind of a chicken or egg thing, are they more liked because they are better known or are they better known because they are more liked? Sabbath's popularity isn't fairly characterized as a result of scene compulsion and conformity the way you seem to hint; the fact is that their music has remained relevant and influential to virtually all developments within the genre over the last 3+ decades. And I wasn't looking just at death and thrash metal, I would throw any genre out there: except prog metal (which I set aside in an earlier post as Dream Theater's forte) Black Sabbath is the more respected and relevant artist in virtually all areas of metal. I'm curious what styles of metal you're thinking of where DT is preferred to Sabbath? (MAYBE power metal but I wonder if that holds true if you take the prog bands out of consideration...)

re: Slayer
Festival dates are not the best indicators of crossover appeal. Metallica has shared a stage with DMX, The Counting Crows and Erykah Badu. Even tours can be problematic in this case, for example: Lauren Harris touring with Iron Maiden.

Written by totaliteraliter on 03.08.2008 at 00:28

What determines how popular a band is? In most basic terms, the amount of people that listen to them.

And what number is that? See this is where I get lost. Is there a set number? At what point does a band go from being "underground" to being a "sellout"?

Written by Dane Train on 03.08.2008 at 15:53

Written by totaliteraliter on 03.08.2008 at 00:28

What determines how popular a band is? In most basic terms, the amount of people that listen to them.

And what number is that? See this is where I get lost. Is there a set number? At what point does a band go from being "underground" to being a "sellout"?

Becoming a sellout has nothing to do with the number of people who listen to a band. And there is obviously no concrete number that is the limit for a band to be underground; see the criteria I broadly outlined in my previous post.

Written by Valentin B on 02.08.2008 at 19:16
subtlety mostly... for example a certain part, more quiet than the rest of the song, has a background piano piece, to help set the atmosphere, whereas with shitty production it would simply be filled with background noise, and that (to me at least) doesn't quite provide any atmosphere, sometimes it actually annoys me lol

I see your point, but I think this is more of an issue of dynamics than production. Having the music bathed in lo-fi fuzz has been a major and effective atmospheric foundation for plenty of styles, but I don't necessarily think that would be appropriate for Dimmu. In part, I think it's an issue of the ultra-clean production placing to much emphasis on performance and musicianship, distracting from the lack of an overall message/mood/atmosphere...

I really don't care if a band is seen as cheesy, poser or sell out, I only care about if I like them and if I like the music they make.

the terms true metal, false metal and similar are too stupid for me. Metal music is not a standard product that everyone has to make the same based on standards set on the 80's, what makes metal (and other genres of music) great is variety and open mindness

there is also the personal opinion, for example, if I say Korn is metal, then they are metal for me, and there's nothing anyone can do to change my mind, i cannot change other people's opinion either

Another thing I see is that most fans, specially the youngest ones, doesn't understand that musicians are also employees and their job is making music. so if in a job an employee has an opportunity to grow, the most obvious and logical thing to do is to take that opportuniy. As the same, most of the sellout labels are unfairly set. All these bands (for example: metallica, in flames, dragonforce) saw the opportunity to become huge, to achieve their dreams and become famous, rich and respected for millions of people. and they did it. And that's something I admire, although I could disagree with new bands sounds.

Anyway, after all is just music xD

Written by selken on 03.08.2008 at 23:50

Metal music is not a standard product that everyone has to make the same based on standards set on the 80's, what makes metal (and other genres of music) great is variety and open mindness

It's not deliberate at all. It all happened by accident. Its similarity in sound, image and ideas is accidental. No thinking goes into it at all, because that might make it less deconstructed, less personal.

I invented myself, and the universe in which I dwell, and when I die, it will vanish as well. Everyone and every thing is a variation of myself, a part of me. I have no need for anything but me, because everyone I meet is me, and everything I need is something I can hold or purchase. I am alone self-sufficient because all of you are just reflections of me.

Written by Conservationist on 04.08.2008 at 06:28

Written by selken on 03.08.2008 at 23:50

Metal music is not a standard product that everyone has to make the same based on standards set on the 80's, what makes metal (and other genres of music) great is variety and open mindness

It's not deliberate at all. It all happened by accident. Its similarity in sound, image and ideas is accidental. No thinking goes into it at all, because that might make it less deconstructed, less personal.

I invented myself, and the universe in which I dwell, and when I die, it will vanish as well. Everyone and every thing is a variation of myself, a part of me. I have no need for anything but me, because everyone I meet is me, and everything I need is something I can hold or purchase. I am alone self-sufficient because all of you are just reflections of me.

Sorry dude, I don't get your point :S

Written by selken on 04.08.2008 at 07:06

Written by Conservationist on 04.08.2008 at 06:28

Written by selken on 03.08.2008 at 23:50

Metal music is not a standard product that everyone has to make the same based on standards set on the 80's, what makes metal (and other genres of music) great is variety and open mindness

It's not deliberate at all. It all happened by accident. Its similarity in sound, image and ideas is accidental. No thinking goes into it at all, because that might make it less deconstructed, less personal.

I invented myself, and the universe in which I dwell, and when I die, it will vanish as well. Everyone and every thing is a variation of myself, a part of me. I have no need for anything but me, because everyone I meet is me, and everything I need is something I can hold or purchase. I am alone self-sufficient because all of you are just reflections of me.

Sorry dude, I don't get your point :S

I think he is trying to say that all truth is subjective because all phenomena (music, pictures, tastes, etc...) in the world that we experience are filtered through the self.

Personally, I think such a way of viewing the world is unneccessarily egocentric and completely unhelpful, even if it does have truth to it (but thats just me)

Written by Hrothdane on 04.08.2008 at 07:46

Written by selken on 04.08.2008 at 07:06

Written by Conservationist on 04.08.2008 at 06:28

Written by selken on 03.08.2008 at 23:50

Metal music is not a standard product that everyone has to make the same based on standards set on the 80's, what makes metal (and other genres of music) great is variety and open mindness

It's not deliberate at all. It all happened by accident. Its similarity in sound, image and ideas is accidental. No thinking goes into it at all, because that might make it less deconstructed, less personal.

I invented myself, and the universe in which I dwell, and when I die, it will vanish as well. Everyone and every thing is a variation of myself, a part of me. I have no need for anything but me, because everyone I meet is me, and everything I need is something I can hold or purchase. I am alone self-sufficient because all of you are just reflections of me.

Sorry dude, I don't get your point :S

I think he is trying to say that all truth is subjective because all phenomena (music, pictures, tastes, etc...) in the world that we experience are filtered through the self.

Personally, I think such a way of viewing the world is unneccessarily egocentric and completely unhelpful, even if it does have truth to it (but thats just me)

Well if so I have to agree that every mind is a world....

see ya XD

i really dont give a fuck about people bitching about these things [then again i may be lying to myself, you know?]

the problem may be [may be]...

so i have been listening to this band for a while now, they are fucking awesome. but then someday, another dude finds this band and
he likes it too, and the circle grows. ok this kinda pisses me off. sometime ago, it was just me listening, but now this other shitheads
are listening too and they are talking, bitching or whatever about this band like they are the first ones who found it or something.

i dont know if im getting through to you guys but sometimes i feel that.

but this is a good thing, i mean the band gets "popular" and well-known and it makes me really happy and shit.

Rhapsody of Fire is probably the cheesiest power metal band at present. while they have put anything out in awhile, everytime i watch the "Power of the DragonFlame" or the "Rain of a Thousand Flames" video, i cant help but wonder how a band can be so cheesy, yet so technical.

People rip on Dimmu Borgir so much, but at least they have some metal elements in their music... (Don't get me wrong here, I do hate Dimmu Borgir and think they are cheesy as hell lol).

But when I think of real posers or the most Cheesy bands out there, I automatically think of all the shitty Emocore bands that try to brand their music as metal. Shitty bands like Underoath or Norma Jean who come out in their girl pants and lipstick and scream things like, "Lets see you throw up those horns...for christ!" Ugh, I get so pissed just thinking about it. These ladies come out, appeal to a broad group of young people, then brainwash them into thinking that what they play is the most brutal brand of metal out there. It's just bullshit

Written by Branzig on 07.10.2008 at 19:51

But when I think of real posers or the most Cheesy bands out there, I automatically think of all the shitty Emocore bands that try to brand their music as metal. Shitty bands like Underoath or Norma Jean who come out in their girl pants and lipstick and scream things like, "Lets see you throw up those horns...for christ!" Ugh, I get so pissed just thinking about it. These ladies come out, appeal to a broad group of young people, then brainwash them into thinking that what they play is the most brutal brand of metal out there. It's just bullshit

Christian metal bands are one of the most pitiful entities in the whole damn world, they pathetically Jockey for a possition in Metal scene while they are nothing but a misfit...it ruins more when they try to look EXTREME.
at least lets all thank their Lord for not having Muslim-metal bands yet.