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Posted by bj_waters on 06.09.2011 at 05:57
I've got a friend that I hadn't seen for a while but who's recently gotten into extreme metal (black, brutal death, etc.). He sort of wants to talk metal with me, but I prefer the more melodic stuff (i.e. Power Metal). While he's found a few Power Metal songs that he likes, he generally hates the whole subgenre because it's too ridiculous (a valid argument). I suggested that he should look into Kamelot, but he blew it off, probably because of the name of the band.

My question actually has nothing to do with my friend, but it did make me think for a minute. Based on my minor wanderings of metal web sites, I've been given the impression that even fans of the blackest and/or most brutal metal bands generally like Kamelot (personally, I think my friend is just being lame). Of course, Kamelot isn't your stereotypical Power Metal group, which may be a major reason why it's praised by metalheads of all types.

In any case, all this thinking has led me to ask you guys this question: Despite your preferences for Extreme Metal, what Power Metal bands DO you like, and why?

EDIT: Looking over the thread and thinking about it a little more, perhaps I'm trying to ask a different question: What Power Metal band, regardless of metal preferences, can everyone agree on? If not a band, then what albums? I think that's why I focused on Kamelot because they have (had?) the styles often found in FlowerCore while still being a very quality metal band as a whole. (Maybe this thread should be moved to general metal?)



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IncoherentScream

Posts: 106

Age: 28
From: USA

  02.02.2012 at 11:50
Written by R'Vannith on 01.02.2012 at 04:22

Written by IncoherentScream on 01.02.2012 at 01:44

How could they not be considered complete opposites?? Can you seriously listen to a Dragonforce song then switch records and listen to a track off of Blaze in the Northern Sky and tell me that the two are not contradictory? Sure, they both use power chords. That's where the similarities end.


Personally, while I can see the difference, that's all there is to it for me. Difference. Not opposition. Why does a number of differences, as numerous as they may be, make the two variants of metal opposite?

Written by IncoherentScream on 01.02.2012 at 01:44

Power Metal is generally a triumphant, fist in the air kind of Metal. The sort of soundtrack you might expect to hear when the hero woops ass on the legions of evil. Correct me if I'm wrong, but that is sort of the whole point of most Power Metal, is it not? At least what I've heard that is what they were doing. Power Metal also seems to be generally about a certain concept i.e. most of the albums attempt to tell a story about a hero/wizard/etc.


Very generally you could say that this is the traditional theme of Power metal. It does go beyond this stereotype, but your simplification of it is fair enough.

Written by IncoherentScream on 01.02.2012 at 01:44

Black Metal on the other hand (forget about Death for the moment) uses minor chords, tremolo picking, etc. to create a deep, dark, chilling sound. The complete opposite of the sunny "here comes the hero" style of most Power Metal bands. Black Metal is about nihilism, Satanism, anti-Christianity, anti-authority, romanticism of death, etc. Sound like anything any Power Metal band has ever tried to write about? Yes they both use Metal to create an atmosphere but they do it so in such wildly different ways that it's hard to imagine anyone finding any serious comparison between them.


If you can't compare them, how are they opposite? Is finding no similarities between Power metal and, in your example, Black metal a reason to state that they are opposite? I don't think so, different is all they are, there is no opposition.

The problem I see is that there is some attempt in the metal to make out that power metal is the opposite of more extreme forms of metal. This relies on over simplifying each genre, ruling out the variances within each and basing their claim that the two are just incompatible on intangible grounds.




Definitions:

Opposition:
-the action of opposing, resisting, or combating.
-antagonism or hostility
-a person or group of people opposing, criticizing, or protesting something, someone, or another group.
-( sometimes initial capital letter ) the major political party opposed to the party in power and seeking to replace it.

Opposite:
-situated, placed, or lying face to face with something else or each other, or in corresponding positions with relation to an intervening line, space, or thing: opposite ends of a room.
-contrary or radically different in some respect common to both, as in nature, qualities, direction, result, or significance
-being the other of two related or corresponding things: friendly with many members of the opposite sex.
-situated on diametrically opposed sides of an axis, as leaves when there are two on one node.

So you can see why I stated that they were opposites. Apples and oranges friend. They are both fruit, but some have preference for one over the other. Because though they are both fruit their taste is opposite. That is to say, oranges taste nothing like apples.

Also yes BJ, I agree there is potential good in everything. But you asked for an album to appeal to an extreme metalhead, of which my opinion is that there isn't one. It is also my opinion that Power Metal<Extreme Metal. Different strokes brother. Power Metal doesn't need to be defended but you asked why Extreme Metalheads didn't like it and I answered your question from my own perspective. If you like it it's good. If not it's shit. That's all there is to it.

BTW...listened to Kamelot again...still not feeling it. But I did give it a fair shot.
R'Vannith
Spiralmind

Posts: 2708

Age: 22
From: Australia

  02.02.2012 at 13:16
Written by IncoherentScream on 02.02.2012 at 11:50

So you can see why I stated that they were opposites. Apples and oranges friend. They are both fruit, but some have preference for one over the other. Because though they are both fruit their taste is opposite. That is to say, oranges taste nothing like apples.


As you said, your opinion is that they are polar opposites, no? Complete opposites, that is one thing being the antithesis of something else.

Using your apples and oranges example: they are indeed both fruit, precisely what I said above (they are both metal genres). Now an apple is not the opposite of an orange. Why not a pear or a mango? Where does that leave them?

The taste of an orange is not the opposite of the taste of an apple. They simply taste different.
Promonex
Cathemeral

Posts: 9590

Age: 29
From: Germany

  02.02.2012 at 16:05
Written by bj_waters on 01.02.2012 at 05:57

And it's not like I'm perfect in my exploration of metal: I struggle to find patience with the idea of nu metal being a part of metal, and in particular the group Limp Bizkit, but I saw a video that combined the song "Rollin'" with footage from Katamari Damacy and thought that was pretty cool. It doesn't mean I'm a Limp Bizkit fan now (I'm not). It just means that a good idea can strike when you least expect it.

You know I'm somewhat open-minded, but even I have problems seeing the metal in Limp Bizkit. I'm not saying they are bad, when I was younger I adored quite a bunch of their songs, but they've never been metal to me. They stemmed from the nu metal scene, but technically, that is the riffs and everything, have never been metal to me. Unlike Slipknot or Linkin Park. Yeah, LP's first two albums are metal to me.

Nonetheless I'd like to emphasize a point made by the Screamer: if you fail to enjoy something, it just means that you don't enjoy it. It doesn't mean that you are close-minded. It doesn't mind that you are respectless towards a certain type of music or a specific band. It just means that it's not the kind of music you enjoy. As simple as that. No need to see metal as a genre that is threatened by extinction and which needs to be protected like the Shield-Leaved Pitcher-Plant. No need to force yourself to enjoying everything that is released with a metal tag. I'm not into drone metal for example. Does that make me a bad metalhead who doesn't meet the obligations of an ideal metalhead?
----
All life begins with Nu and ends with Nu... This is the truth! This is my belief! ...At least for now.
- The Mystery of Life, Vol. 841 Ch. 26
bj_waters

Posts: 230

Age: 29
From: USA

  02.02.2012 at 20:20
Written by Promonex on 02.02.2012 at 16:05

You know I'm somewhat open-minded, but even I have problems seeing the metal in Limp Bizkit. I'm not saying they are bad, when I was younger I adored quite a bunch of their songs, but they've never been metal to me. They stemmed from the nu metal scene, but technically, that is the riffs and everything, have never been metal to me. Unlike Slipknot or Linkin Park. Yeah, LP's first two albums are metal to me.

Nonetheless I'd like to emphasize a point made by the Screamer: if you fail to enjoy something, it just means that you don't enjoy it. It doesn't mean that you are close-minded. It doesn't mind that you are respectless towards a certain type of music or a specific band. It just means that it's not the kind of music you enjoy. As simple as that. No need to see metal as a genre that is threatened by extinction and which needs to be protected like the Shield-Leaved Pitcher-Plant. No need to force yourself to enjoying everything that is released with a metal tag. I'm not into drone metal for example. Does that make me a bad metalhead who doesn't meet the obligations of an ideal metalhead?


Yes!

No, you're right. I guess in hindsight, I was kind of setting myself up for this, so maybe it's good to get it out of the way. Also, I happen to like the first few Linkin Park albums (especially Reanimation; I really hoped they'd go more in that direction ), but I've never considered Linkin Park metal, which stands as further evidence that everyone has their own lines, definitions, and expectations.

Written by IncoherentScream on 02.02.2012 at 11:50

Also yes BJ, I agree there is potential good in everything. But you asked for an album to appeal to an extreme metalhead, of which my opinion is that there isn't one. It is also my opinion that Power Metal<Extreme Metal. Different strokes brother. Power Metal doesn't need to be defended but you asked why Extreme Metalheads didn't like it and I answered your question from my own perspective. If you like it it's good. If not it's shit. That's all there is to it.

BTW...listened to Kamelot again...still not feeling it. But I did give it a fair shot.


Well, thanks for humoring me. And thanks in general to everyone in this thread for helping me stop being so stupid and assuming. I'll get this figured out eventually.
IncoherentScream

Posts: 106

Age: 28
From: USA

  02.02.2012 at 20:38
Written by R'Vannith on 02.02.2012 at 13:16

Written by IncoherentScream on 02.02.2012 at 11:50

So you can see why I stated that they were opposites. Apples and oranges friend. They are both fruit, but some have preference for one over the other. Because though they are both fruit their taste is opposite. That is to say, oranges taste nothing like apples.


As you said, your opinion is that they are polar opposites, no? Complete opposites, that is one thing being the antithesis of something else.

Using your apples and oranges example: they are indeed both fruit, precisely what I said above (they are both metal genres). Now an apple is not the opposite of an orange. Why not a pear or a mango? Where does that leave them?

The taste of an orange is not the opposite of the taste of an apple. They simply taste different.


Hahahahaha...we're going around in circles on this one.

Ok so we will have to agree to disagree on the analogy we use to describe Metal. From what your saying it's only differences, which in my mind and understand would be like saying they are all similar, just different. But to me that's just not how I see it. Here comes another analogy, for lack of a better way to explain my point of view.

I think we can agree that the color wheel we all learned in our younger years is a good way to look at Metal. For you, there is no black and white just different colors. Say like red and yellow. Both colors, just different. Add in all the varying shades when these colors overlap I think I'm getting a fair view of how you interpret things.

For me on the other hand black and white are colors that would relate to the Metal world. Extreme Metal (especially Black/Death) would represent black where as Power Metal and all it's ilk would be white. Black and white are not different. They are opposite.

So now I think we can put it aside, drink a beer, and put the needle down on a badass record of our choosing. For me it's Deathcrush, but cheers to whatever your choice is and thank the Metal Gods that there isn't just one simple genre to encompass everything but rather something for everyone.
R'Vannith
Spiralmind

Posts: 2708

Age: 22
From: Australia

  03.02.2012 at 05:44
I still don't understand your point of view from that color analogy, but I don't think we'll agree on it no matter how much we argue.

Written by IncoherentScream on 02.02.2012 at 20:38

thank the Metal Gods that there isn't just one simple genre to encompass everything but rather something for everyone.


That we can agree on. If you'll pardon the pun, thank those Metal Gods that the genre isn't Black and White but all shades of grey
bran

Posts: 157

Age: 27
From: USA

  10.02.2012 at 05:25
Written by Doc Godin on 12.09.2011 at 22:14

Written by Enemy of Reality on 12.09.2011 at 16:40

Here's a suggestion for you too: just fucking mind you own business.

He's a mod around here, sort of is his business, champ.

Anyways...Topic at hand, right. Personally I'd give a recommendation of Skeletonwitch. Sure, they're not all that "epic" but they've got some of those melodic leads that fly over top the top-speed thrash riffing, and it's pretty clean and sharp, so it's got that more accessible quality to it.

Other than that, all my suggestions would probably be fairly typical and unhelpful. Ensiferum, Suidakra, etc, etc.


i definitely recommend skeletonwitch,i think they are a great gateway from power metal into black/thrash metal.
i still love power metal but i love every genre of metal its just different tunes for different moods
----
top 5 albums of 2012 so far.

1. wintersun- time I
2. woods of ypres- woods V grey skies and electric light
3. agalloch- faustian echoes EP
4. the slow death- II
5. kreator- phantom antichrist
IncoherentScream

Posts: 106

Age: 28
From: USA

  11.02.2012 at 03:02
Skeletonwitch as gateway to Power Metal? Hmmm..odd. Never saw it that way before. I'm going to have to put their album on with this in mind and see what happens.
mojo

Posts: 92
From: UK

  11.02.2012 at 23:07
Hehe, fascinating read, this topic. When I first got into music, these genres literally didn't exist. Maybe that's why I still listen to pretty much anything and enjoy bands in pretty much any "genre" imaginable - I've heard them all develop out of each other as I've grown older and there's great stuff everywhere. I guess I'm only just realizing that for a lot of you guys, all these genres existed already when you got into music.

Anyways, I'm happy to report that everything's been getting better and better and still is. First thing that blew my little mind was in the first week of secondary school when Scott, a lad I sat with in class, lent me a tape with Iron Maiden's "Powerslave" (just out that week) on one side and AC/DC's "Let There Be Rock" on the other. I was an instant metalhead and it's never stopped growing...

Accept "Fast as a Shark", Iron Maiden "Aces High" and Judas Priest "Hell Bent for Leather" and almost anything by Anvil are all what I'd call Power Metal and I loved all that stuff at first - in them days it was just "Heavy Metal". Slowly getting faster and harder lead into Metallica, Slayer, Megadeth and Anthrax, and that led to .. well, it ends so far with Aborted

On topic, I'd always recommend Helloween as far as "Keeper II", as mentioned by someone else. If someone doesn't get those, they'll probably never get "Power Metal" (I'm not keen on the name, but there it is). I remember when Helloween were still "Speed Metal" hahaha). If they do, then all the best other steps on that path have been named already.

So yeah.

/Random comments.
----
Yeah. No. Wait, what was the question?
Savopipo

Posts: 459
From: Sweden

  12.02.2012 at 01:15
Written by mojo on 11.02.2012 at 23:07

Hehe, fascinating read, this topic. When I first got into music, these genres literally didn't exist. Maybe that's why I still listen to pretty much anything and enjoy bands in pretty much any "genre" imaginable - I've heard them all develop out of each other as I've grown older and there's great stuff everywhere. I guess I'm only just realizing that for a lot of you guys, all these genres existed already when you got into music.

Anyways, I'm happy to report that everything's been getting better and better and still is. First thing that blew my little mind was in the first week of secondary school when Scott, a lad I sat with in class, lent me a tape with Iron Maiden's "Powerslave" (just out that week) on one side and AC/DC's "Let There Be Rock" on the other. I was an instant metalhead and it's never stopped growing...

Accept "Fast as a Shark", Iron Maiden "Aces High" and Judas Priest "Hell Bent for Leather" and almost anything by Anvil are all what I'd call Power Metal and I loved all that stuff at first - in them days it was just "Heavy Metal". Slowly getting faster and harder lead into Metallica, Slayer, Megadeth and Anthrax, and that led to .. well, it ends so far with Aborted

On topic, I'd always recommend Helloween as far as "Keeper II", as mentioned by someone else. If someone doesn't get those, they'll probably never get "Power Metal" (I'm not keen on the name, but there it is). I remember when Helloween were still "Speed Metal" hahaha). If they do, then all the best other steps on that path have been named already.

So yeah.

/Random comments.

I second that!
----
Check Lidice out at http://www.myspace.com/Lidiceband
Infernal Eternal

Posts: 531

Age: 100
From: Greece

  12.02.2012 at 20:15
The 2 first Blind Guardian albums are awesome . Of course they are speed metal .
----
www.carnagedeathmetal.de - Awesome Fanzine
Solemn23
Account deleted
  12.02.2012 at 20:22
<troll>like Wintersun?</troll>
bran

Posts: 157

Age: 27
From: USA

  14.02.2012 at 09:58
Written by IncoherentScream on 11.02.2012 at 03:02

Skeletonwitch as gateway to Power Metal? Hmmm..odd. Never saw it that way before. I'm going to have to put their album on with this in mind and see what happens.


not a gateway to power metal a gateway from power metal to black/thrash metal.
----
top 5 albums of 2012 so far.

1. wintersun- time I
2. woods of ypres- woods V grey skies and electric light
3. agalloch- faustian echoes EP
4. the slow death- II
5. kreator- phantom antichrist
IncoherentScream

Posts: 106

Age: 28
From: USA

  14.02.2012 at 13:07
Written by bran on 14.02.2012 at 09:58

Written by IncoherentScream on 11.02.2012 at 03:02

Skeletonwitch as gateway to Power Metal? Hmmm..odd. Never saw it that way before. I'm going to have to put their album on with this in mind and see what happens.


not a gateway to power metal a gateway from power metal to black/thrash metal.


Oh guess I got that mixed up...weird. But I think it might work both ways then....wouldn't it?
bran

Posts: 157

Age: 27
From: USA

  15.02.2012 at 01:15
Written by IncoherentScream on 14.02.2012 at 13:07

Written by bran on 14.02.2012 at 09:58

Written by IncoherentScream on 11.02.2012 at 03:02

Skeletonwitch as gateway to Power Metal? Hmmm..odd. Never saw it that way before. I'm going to have to put their album on with this in mind and see what happens.


not a gateway to power metal a gateway from power metal to black/thrash metal.


Oh guess I got that mixed up...weird. But I think it might work both ways then....wouldn't it?


i think it could. skeletonwitch has a lot of melodic guitar melodies and even though they use the black metal vocal style i find their stuff extremely catchy and easy to sing along to in the style of power metal.
----
top 5 albums of 2012 so far.

1. wintersun- time I
2. woods of ypres- woods V grey skies and electric light
3. agalloch- faustian echoes EP
4. the slow death- II
5. kreator- phantom antichrist
IncoherentScream

Posts: 106

Age: 28
From: USA

  15.02.2012 at 05:41
That's an extremely interesting POV and one I haven't heard before but I can see where you're coming from. In fact ever since I started posting on this thread I've been doing my best to tune my ear into being able to hear Power Metal-esque shit in other brands of metal. The results have been kind of surprising thus far... I'm not changing my original stance..just saying.
bj_waters

Posts: 230

Age: 29
From: USA

  15.02.2012 at 07:14
Written by IncoherentScream on 15.02.2012 at 05:41

That's an extremely interesting POV and one I haven't heard before but I can see where you're coming from. In fact ever since I started posting on this thread I've been doing my best to tune my ear into being able to hear Power Metal-esque shit in other brands of metal. The results have been kind of surprising thus far... I'm not changing my original stance..just saying.


Well I would think that would only be natural. Power Metal is still metal, so it's going to have things in common with other genres. Even if we try to break it down, we can find similar things: Fast tempos (Black, Thrash, Death), melodic riffs (Traditional Heavy, Progressive, some Doom, some Thrash), clean vocals (all over the place, but mostly Heavy, Progressive, Epic Doom), epic soundscapes (Progressive, lotsa Folk, Symphonic anything), cheesy and bombastic lyrics (I . . . shouldn't have to post examples), and so on. The thing that makes Power Metal unique is its unique blend of all these things, and just because you don't like the blend doesn't mean you don't like the ingredients. Does that make sense? Or am I inferring you incorrectly?
R'Vannith
Spiralmind

Posts: 2708

Age: 22
From: Australia

  15.02.2012 at 09:29
Written by bj_waters on 15.02.2012 at 07:14

Well I would think that would only be natural. Power Metal is still metal, so it's going to have things in common with other genres. Even if we try to break it down, we can find similar things: Fast tempos (Black, Thrash, Death), melodic riffs (Traditional Heavy, Progressive, some Doom, some Thrash), clean vocals (all over the place, but mostly Heavy, Progressive, Epic Doom), epic soundscapes (Progressive, lotsa Folk, Symphonic anything), cheesy and bombastic lyrics (I . . . shouldn't have to post examples), and so on. The thing that makes Power Metal unique is its unique blend of all these things, and just because you don't like the blend doesn't mean you don't like the ingredients. Does that make sense? Or am I inferring you incorrectly?


I agree with this, you could view metal (or any genre for that matter) as a sort of a pool, filled with the techniques and characteristics you've described. Different takes on the genre require pulling different things from the pool and placing varying degrees of emphasis on them.
IncoherentScream

Posts: 106

Age: 28
From: USA

  16.02.2012 at 23:59
No I mean I'm finding pieces of music from other genres of Metal that don't have elements in common with Power Metal but sound straight up like Power Metal if you're paying close enough attention to hear it. I'll post some examples I've what I'm talking about at some point here so you can agree/disagree with me at will.

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