Written by jeffhayden on 06.04.2014 at 21:15
Hello everyone,
I am new to this forum. In my first visit, like this thread very much.

Feel free to introduce yourself here as well.

I grew up On Toxicity, It's still a Masterpiece for me... the Gigs in that era must have totally Insane. I still need to get the Debut album.

I think this band gets a lot of shit nowadays for being paired with the Nu metal scene. Sure, they used to dress the part, but the sound was nothing near that, i'd say they were a lot more progressive actually. I love SOAD, they are one of my favourite bands and every time I put any of their CD's, it still sounds awesome and it still sticks.

Written by raveneffect on 27.05.2014 at 12:07

I think this band gets a lot of shit nowadays for being paired with the Nu metal scene. Sure, they used to dress the part, but the sound was nothing near that, i'd say they were a lot more progressive actually. I love SOAD, they are one of my favourite bands and every time I put any of their CD's, it still sounds awesome and it still sticks.

Yeah I'd like to see an alternative history where the band weren't constantly associated with a sound they had very little in common with. I think perhaps they wouldn't have become as famous as they are now, but would probably garner a lot more respect than they do on here. Frankly SoaD are one of those bands I literally can't understand why people could possibly dislike. They write immense songs, both creative and memorable, lyrically they're unorthodox and they have one of best vocalists of any time. Shit taste is the only excuse for not liking them.

It probably came to the tune thing plus the fact the wardrobe fact. At that time I just thought it was Tool being taken to a new level.

Nope, very little nu-metal in System. It's just like people calling Lamb of God and Shadows Fall metalcore when they lack most components of the genre, even if they are considered part of the scene. Nothing to do with being ashamed or not, it's just about recognising traits of a genre. Or lack thereof in this case.

Written by Guest on 27.05.2014 at 13:48
Yeah I'd like to see an alternative history where the band weren't constantly associated with a sound they had very little in common with. I think perhaps they wouldn't have become as famous as they are now, but would probably garner a lot more respect than they do on here. Frankly SoaD are one of those bands I literally can't understand why people could possibly dislike. They write immense songs, both creative and memorable, lyrically they're unorthodox and they have one of best vocalists of any time. Shit taste is the only excuse for not liking them.

Pretty much "summarized" everything I think about them. Back when I was an elitist 15-year-old I went out of my way not to listen to them and made fun of people who did on Metal-Archives without ever hearing anything other than "Chop Suey" (which I even liked at the time but was too "cool" to admit).

What an idiot I was. Great band. Unique, talented, catchy, progressive, etc. etc. etc.

Written by Troy Killjoy on 28.05.2014 at 03:11

Pretty much "summarized" everything I think about them. Back when I was an elitist 15-year-old I went out of my way not to listen to them and made fun of people who did on Metal-Archives without ever hearing anything other than "Chop Suey" (which I even liked at the time but was too "cool" to admit).

What an idiot I was. Great band. Unique, talented, catchy, progressive, etc. etc. etc.

I was probably lucky in that respect that they were more or less the first metal band I heard and was generally unaware of the love / hate thing they had. That's if such a thing existed back then. Hard to say really. I'm sure a fair amount of true metallers weren't big fans.

I definitely think of them as being in the realm of metal - alternative and maybe a little progressive, but definitely metal. Not surprising to hear they (possibly) felt they transcended the label though, a lot of metal musicians tend to think outside of that spectrum and for good reason. No point pigeonholing your sound.

Influence doesn't define a band's genre. The music does. SoaD may incorporate a variety of influences including punk, world music, possibly some minor hip-hop and rap and so on, but the result is unequivocally metal. The last 2 albums may be regarded as alternative rock but the first 3 are quintessentially alternative metal, for the simple reason it isn't primarily rock, it isn't grunge, nor is it hip-hop, rap, punk or anything else when looking at it from the simplest angle. Deduction and weighing up what is in front of you leads to the obvious conclusion, and in SoaD's case I don't think it's ever been much of a challenge coming to a conclusion that the generally shaky umbrella term "alternative metal" suits them almost ideally.

Furthermore, what bands think their music is is of no consequence. If it was the case then CoB would be black metal.

Soad was progressive on the same way Tool was. I know I'm repeating myself a lot, but they are the only band I find somehow simillar. Some songs are just Tool'esque, like Spiders or Aerials, the tune intros, the progressive breakdowns. They Werent a little bit progressive, they were progressive as fuck, not on the prog riffs but in not having a based structure for a song, constantly changing tempos and being eclectic in terms of influences. Progheads tend to forget that these were the prime factors of what made Rock be Prog in the first place and SOAD were just genious on making Metal sound that way.

And yep, I never said SOAD wasnt part of the Nu Metal scene, they were, thats a fact. MTV launched them as part of the NU Thing and they sure dressed the part (baggy pants, Strange Make Up, Dickie Shirts, Adidas), But when you actually listen to them, theres almost no Nu Metal at all in their sound.

I'm pretty sure nu metal was defined as alternative metal that incorporated elements of rap and/or hip-hop. Basically Linkin Park and Limp Bizkit by definition. It has nothing to do with not wanting to like nu metal (at least for me and I know for Joe as well, I can't speak for others) but SoaD incorporated at best a minimal amount of hip-hop elements in their music.

I will concede to your argument about image, however. Too many times bands are lumped in with genres they don't belong to simply based on "looking the part".

I reckon they sound more alternative than nu. Will progressive alternative metal do?

"Nu metal" was coined by a Kerrang! journalist I believe.

In reality then, the only thing that keep SoaD within the Nu Metal umbrella is image and time of inception as well as some locational factors. I'm generally not into revisionism but in this instance believe it's more than fine to re-assess them on musical merits. No one here is debating whether or not they were part of a scene, in this case Nu Metal; we're all well aware of that, we are simply pointing out that applying a standard which was nothing more than overzealous marketing by Kerrang! and other publications 15 years ago shouldn't remain today when we can take a more balanced look at their style and sound, which as the consensus here believes, puts SoaD somewhere other than Nu Metal which does not suitably represent their music.

As for their image though, I'm pretty sure they dropped that after the s/t. All the single videos from Toxicity were them dressed in pretty standard attire. No silly make-up etc.

As for others not using Nu Metal traits: Korn didn't use rap? Have you not listened to any of their music? Follow The Leader was heavily hip-hop laden, and possibly the Life is Peachy in fact. How do you think they became so associated with famous rappers if they had no hip-hop elements? POD also rapped in a lot of their music if I recall, and Slipknot did indeed use turntables, quite a bit in fact, it was part of their sound. The DJ from Slipknot has his own project called DJ Starscream (I think). Corey was also considered to use a somewhat rap-like style as well. Despite this, I personally regard Slipknot as more of an alternative thrash band with some rap elements than a Nu Metal band, as their core music style doesn't lend itself much to Nu Metal.

Deftones ceased to be Nu Metal after their first album, and the likes of Disturbed and Godsmack I don't believe are largely regarded as Nu Metal in this day and age. As for Sevendust and Drowning Pool, I don't know how associated they were with Nu Metal but these days I don't believe they are, though I would have to check up on that.

I don't think one can regard Nu Metal as a broad umbrella term, as it's generally accepted that it's part and parcel of alternative metal and rock's tapestry, which itself is one of the biggest and vaguest umbrella terms of them all. Nu Metal's charateristics are easy to define, whereas Alternative Metal is not, hence why SoaD could ideally belong in that cat.

Quote:
Personally to me saying SOAD are prog metal and not Nu-metal is like saying Black Sabbath were Doom. It's retrospective reassignment based on current values and not reflecting the actual historical and overall stylistic context.

Quite different in my opinion. Sabbath were seen as precursors to sound which is applied in a retrospective fashion because numerous bands adopted it in to what is regarded as "doom" today whereas System were simply lumped in with a scene with little regard to their sound which didn't lend itself to something which had already been established. In this instance the current values, i.e. the analysis of their music is more valid than a simple history lesson which basically highlights record labels dressing them up in a particular way to fit a movement. It's entirely ridiculous to use that as the key basis of their historical (and future) categorisation. They were part of the Nu Metal scene, but they weren't Nu Metal. That is what history should read. Mercyful Fate are considered part of the black metal scene, but only a dummy would call them black metal these days. Effectively the same thing.

You also need to stop pushing this idea that our statements are biased by our tastes. I don't know if you were just stating the bleeding obvious in general terms or specifically targeting us as a way of discrediting our arguments but I don't think anyone here is trying to pigeonhole SoaD because of a dislike for Nu Metal. That's an erroneous street to go down here and doesn't support your efforts.

I know you're the Nu Metal warrior dude, but your arguments are, at best, clunky as fuck.

Written by raveneffect on 29.05.2014 at 16:25

I know you're the Nu Metal warrior dude, but your arguments are, at best, clunky as fuck.

I get his points, but they're a history lesson and nothing more. I'm really not sure he has the ability to analyse in a well rounded manner, only interpret influences and label outputs in a limited fashion.

I really dont have a problem playing the game "How to spot Nu Metal music". Not that hard.
Does it have Rap elements?
Are the guitars tuned in that particular way? (Im not acknowledged in music theory at all, but after a while you'll start to notice the similarities)
Are you listening to something that, mostly, follows the same structure and draws from heavy Thrash riffs but commonly ditches the solos?

Well, its Nu Metal then...

- KoRn had rap.
- Slipknot had turntables and Corey's singing style was Rap-based. on some songs its just straight up rap into the reffrain.
- Chino had a rap-influenced singing style as well and the whole music was really down-tuned, though Deftones droped that type of songs really early, they still have a little bit of these elements.

Someone should open a poll in the metal arena polling about their genre. I'm curious as to what the general MS population thinks. I imagine nu metal would come out on top but maybe people would surprise me.

I'd open it but I'd be in fear of it being closed down by the bitter staff.

Written by Guest on 29.05.2014 at 19:35
I'd open it but I'd be in fear of it being closed down by the bitter staff.

Nah, you should open it. It's a legit question and a good place for debate. There are far more pointless threads around for sure.

Sounds like melodeath to me ^ I guess they're nu-metal then.

Written by deadone on 30.05.2014 at 01:58

Drowning Pool didn't have rap elements and they're Nu-metal. Then there's the Il Ninos, early Soulflys, Coalchambers, Slipknots, Spineshanks etc.

Wait...what???? Are you serious? All those bands had rap elements in their vocals, Most of them even used plain Rap as a bridge between Reffrain and Choruses.

Written by deadone on 30.05.2014 at 01:58

Nothing to do with Thrash. This is more Groove Metal/1990s Hardcore ala Madball style riffing in my opinion - big fat mosh riffs.
Also no speed and certainly no Thrash structures - a lot of Nu-metal was heavy verse melodci chorus and that's certainly not a Thrash metal thing.

And where do you think Groove and Hardcore got their style riffing from? what do you think its cathegorized as "Mosh Riffs"?

It's funny when people say things like "Shit taste is the only excuse for not liking them" so if i don't have the same tastes as someone i must have shit tastes.

i use to thrash these guys when i was younger and usually only when hanging out with guys who aren't really into music. I appreciate there talent, but don't really care for them these days

Written by Guest on 31.05.2014 at 02:29

It's funny when people say things like "Shit taste is the only excuse for not liking them" so if i don't have the same tastes as someone i must have shit tastes.

Cheer up, not a comment to take too seriously.

Written by Guest on 31.05.2014 at 02:33


Cheer up, not a comment to take too seriously.

don't worry, when i say things are funny i'm not usually too sad....only a bit

Written by Guest on 31.05.2014 at 02:37

don't worry, when i say things are funny i'm not usually too sad....only a bit

Well you even admitted you appreciate them on some level so clearly my comment doesn't apply to you

Probably was a bit of an overzealous thing of me to say; not something I actually believe.

Written by deadone on 31.05.2014 at 16:15

Some did others didn't.

The fact remains that you still directly said that bands like Slipknot, KoRn and P.O.D. had no hip-hop elements in so I'm beginning to wonder how much Nu Metal you've actually listened to or are in fact just taking wild swings in order to formulate an argument.

"Some did others didn't" strikes me as a comment of someone not knowing even a fraction about a topic that they apparently claim to. If you don't recognise Rap elements in some of the biggest bands of the genre I'm not sure how seriously people expect to take you on your opinions of SoaD when you can't even get the basics of Nu Metal right.



Word.

All those bands did, not some. And I know because I still listen to some ocasionally.

And you are quite wrong on your history stats. 90's Hardcore got their riffing from crossover bands. Crossover started as a cross between Metal and Hardcore and yeah, at least a part of your argument its correct: it all began from SoD. what you fail to say is SoD came from Anthrax plus Billy Milano who was basically an Hardcore singer. Anthrax was already doing this a few years before SoD and yeah, it wasnt HC first then Thrash etc... Discharge did an amazing thing but they got influenced also by the same thing that was paving the way to what Become known as Thrash Metal, and that was, of course, the fast Heavy Metal british bands (or Early Speed Metal, whatever you want to call it). This isnt something that you can say by just looking at dates, it was a scene and all scenes influenced on each other. Thrash was as important to Hardcore as Hardcore was to Thrash. And yes, Groove Metal and 90's Hardcore were mostly a baby from the evolution of the Thrash movement.

If you can't see the Thrash in Nu Metal, then you have a poor perception of what a typical thrash riff is.

I always felt that this song could have been a single for SoaD.

Written by Guest on 31.05.2014 at 16:52


The fact remains that you still directly said that bands like Slipknot, KoRn and P.O.D. had no hip-hop elements in so I'm beginning to wonder how much Nu Metal you've actually listened to or are in fact just taking wild swings in order to formulate an argument.

"Some did others didn't" strikes me as a comment of someone not knowing even a fraction about a topic that they apparently claim to. If you don't recognise Rap elements in some of the biggest bands of the genre I'm not sure how seriously people expect to take you on your opinions of SoaD when you can't even get the basics of Nu Metal right.



Word.

good if he could have seen that post, how do you know when someone has put you on ignore anyway ?

Well it's official then: deadone has absolutely no concept of what rapping is, or has only listened to a few singles of nu metal bands.

Here's one for deadone as he clearly has never listened to the whole album (or any Nu Metal or SoaD album in its entirety I suspect). 8.04 along pretty much shoots another of his notions squarely in the face where he tries to claim that a Nu Metal band / album has no hip-hop elements in:





I'm sure deadintellect (hey, this nicknaming is fun and so cool) will gloss over this just like he glosses over every valid point levelled at him and every fact he gets wrong

*awaits next shot-in-the-dark post*