Recently Sam Dunn (the guy that made Headbanger's Journey) put out a 'debate' video with some female metal musicians about sexism in metal. I'd be interested to hear what metal storm users think about this. I've posted the video but it's quite long, so the tl;dr version of some of the points they make is the following:

1) It's hard to walk into a room and not look like anyone else (referring to things like gigs)

2) Women are given a 'pop quiz' of sorts by men about their knowledge of metal. They essentially have to go above and beyond to prove themselves.

3) Metal lyrical themes and imagery are often based around the sexual objectification of women and glorification of masculinity.

4) The gender/appearance of female band members tends to be the focus of fans, rather than their musical ability.

5) It is annoying being the only female band on a lineup.

6) It is condescending when promoters run gigs with only female bands on the lineup.



My thoughts on the above points would be the following:

Points 1-2 are not unique to women. Metalheads in general will walk into a room and not look like anyone else in any setting other than a metal gig. And anyone wearing an A7X t-shirt at a Suffocation gig would be likely to also get a pop quiz, regardless of gender (I think this point says more about general elitism in metal). In addition, is it really men's fault that so few women choose to attend gigs/listen to metal?

3 - I agree that metal caters to male sexual preferences, but that is because the bulk of it's audience and artists are male. These women could just as easily flip the script and write about their sexual ideals if they so please.

4 - I agree with. However some female artists completely play into this.

5/6 - This doesn't really make sense to me. If a promoter doesn't have more than one or 2 female bands it's sexist, but putting on an all-female lineup is also sexist?

In summary I think that this video misses the mark big time. There is very real sexism that occurs in metal (women being groped at concerts, told they don't belong in metal, etc.) that these women ironically did not mention. Also I find it laughable that this was presented as a 'debate', when all of the contributors had the exact same opinion, and most of the Qs were also cherry picked from people that supported their viewpoint, while ones who disagreed were scoffed at. And the comments have been disabled. Sounds like they're not interested in allowing people to challenge their views.

Your thoughts?

I always had the impression that Sam Dunn stuff is usually very superficial and tailored towards the mainstream. Only skimmed through the video, but this doesn't seem to be an exception.
I think basically what you say in the last paragraph. They miss the point and don't answer pertinent questions. Seems like Liv Kristine IQ level with massive prejudices.

The only sexism matter I can think of in metal nowadays is the Myrkur episode. But I think that happens more because she used to play pop than because she is a lady.
Yes, lyrics and some cover arts can incorporate sexist themes, but hey... Is political correctness reaching even metal now? For God sake, metal lyrics tell us stories about raping and mutilation and everybody is ok with it.

Also number 4 happens in every genre scene, and not just in the metal one. It's more like just one more result of the global sexist objetification of women

By the way I was going to watch the thing but 46:05 is a bit heavy...

Are you guys trying to say that there isnt sexism in metal? The whole metal culture is built around stereotyphical gender roles. Death metal is probably on of the most masculine things man has ever invented. And Draconian is probably the most stereothypical band that this planet has seen. Advice: if you go to a gig dont dance ffs or someone could take you for fags, just

Written by Guest on 14.10.2016 at 17:13

Are you guys trying to say that there isnt sexism in metal? The whole metal culture is built around stereotyphical gender roles. Death metal is probably on of the most masculine things man has ever invented. And Draconian is probably the most stereothypical band that this planet has seen. Advice: if you go to a gig dont dance ffs or someone could take you for fags, just

Not sure if trolling but whatever.

The points debated on that video are mostly stupid. It goes from completely ignorant stuff as "must prove yourself with a quiz" to narrow minded exaggerations as "metal is sexual objectification of women" (which happens in some black/thrash/speed or brutal death bands, but what % of bands do they represent? And how many bands don't mention anything related to gender? So metal is based around glorifying masculinity? Yeah, fuck logic).

As the OP mentioned, there are examples of sexism that aren't even mentioned like being groped, or even raped (you can hear shady stories at festivals...). But this isn't "because metal!" but rather a common male behaviour everywhere, anytime. No different than the rest of society. Oh, how surprising!
It's true that metal is mostly plagued with men, although it is quite clear that the distribution gets more balanced with time. Just compare the gender representation at gigs in the 90' with nowadays. To me it shows that it's somewhat opening up, and not only concerning gender, but also how it mixes with other social groups, music styles, etc...

Written by Karlabos on 14.10.2016 at 17:01

The only sexism matter I can think of in metal nowadays is the Myrkur episode. But I think that happens more because she used to play pop than because she is a lady.
Yes, lyrics and some cover arts can incorporate sexist themes, but hey... Is political correctness reaching even metal now? For God sake, metal lyrics tell us stories about raping and mutilation and everybody is ok with it.

Also number 4 happens in every genre scene, and not just in the metal one. It's more like just one more result of the global sexist objetification of women

I wasn't familiar with that story but a brief glance at an article or 2 makes me also question if that was just regular old black metal elitism. After all, is it any different to the hate that all-male 'hipster' black metal bands get?

Agreed about your point on number 4.

Written by Guest on 14.10.2016 at 17:13

Are you guys trying to say that there isnt sexism in metal? The whole metal culture is built around stereotyphical gender roles. Death metal is probably on of the most masculine things man has ever invented. And Draconian is probably the most stereothypical band that this planet has seen. Advice: if you go to a gig dont dance ffs or someone could take you for fags, just

That wasn't my point at all.

As I said in the post, there certainly is sexism in metal. I've seen some disgusting stuff at gigs like people groping women that are being crowsurfed. What I'm saying is the points in the video are really reaching for sexism where there isn't any...imo

Written by Zombie94 on 14.10.2016 at 20:06

Written by Guest on 14.10.2016 at 17:13

Are you guys trying to say that there isnt sexism in metal? The whole metal culture is built around stereotyphical gender roles. Death metal is probably on of the most masculine things man has ever invented. And Draconian is probably the most stereothypical band that this planet has seen. Advice: if you go to a gig dont dance ffs or someone could take you for fags, just

That wasn't my point at all.

As I said in the post, there certainly is sexism in metal. I've seen some disgusting stuff at gigs like people groping women that are being crowsurfed. What I'm saying is the points in the video are really reaching for sexism where there isn't any...imo

I couldnt care less for the video, just skimmed it to be honest. You could have made the heading a bit less general.

Well the thing is that sexism exists in society in general. So perhaps a better question would be; does sexism exist to greater extent in metal? I think the answer to that question would be no. If you look a hip hop culture for example, women are objectified as much if not more so than in metal. Even looking outside various music genres, examples of sexism exist everywhere, in advertising, sports, the workforce etc. So yes, sexism does exist in metal, however, I don't believe that it exists to a greater extant in metal than it does in society in general.

Written by Guest on 15.10.2016 at 13:29

I couldnt care less for the video, just skimmed it to be honest. You could have made the heading a bit less general.

So you're saying you didn't bother reading the post and then posted your opinion on it... okay then.

In my experience, the level of "sexism," or rather just male douchebaggery in metal circles really just depends on the particular subculture brought out with different subgenres of metal. Take death and thrash metal for example. These are subgenres that stress masculinity, brutality, i.e. the whole macho, testosterone-fueled attitude. They may not be naturally misogynistic or sexist in and of themselves, but they are more likely to speak to men who have such attitudes than something like say, doom or prog metal would. So at shows for such bands, that's where you're more likely to see things like women being groped by male crowd members, being condescendingly "quizzed" by men on their musical tastes, men trying to get women super drunk, etc. I'm not saying it doesn't happen anywhere else in metal, just that, because of the music centering around raw energy and male machismo, that's the area where you're probably going to see it the most. A doom show, a black metal show, a prog show, etc., they aren't really as inclined towards "get wasted and feel womens' tits!" because they don't carry that sort of atmosphere, and again, that's because of the differing lyrical themes of the music

I think Sam Dunn is probably great guy , possibly good at what he does but i think that his films, webseries and stuff is more oriented toward non metal audiences. Man said it himself in Headbangers Journey that he always needed to explain and defend his love for metal to non-metal,mainstream audiences since he began listening to it. That is why he most probably makes stuff which is inclined toward mainstream audiencess (just look the "Lost Extreme Metal Episode" and Banger's "Locked Horns" webseries).

For this reasons I always took his stuff with a pretty large grain of salt , that is , sometimes he and his guests really miss the point about whatever topic they are talking.

Now is there sexism in metal? Well yes ,but than again sexism in one form or another exist in every part of human society.Is it a bad thing ? yes. Is all metal inherently sexist? No, hell no !

Now about these points :
1) It's hard to walk into a room and not look like anyone else (referring to things like gigs)

-Since when was become mandatory for everyone to explicitly be different one from another? And why is that bad thing ? I dont get this one at all.

2) Women are given a 'pop quiz' of sorts by men about their knowledge of metal. They essentially have to go above and beyond to prove themselves.

-Maybe ,when you are like 12. Seriously people who do this are either brats or adult nerds (in a bad sense of the word) who never really grew up regardless of genders. I Have seen this thing happening too, but like i said i really think low of these people.

3) Metal lyrical themes and imagery are often based around the sexual objectification of women and glorification of masculinity.

-This might be true since majority of metal musicians are men and well they like to write stuff from their point of view. But, then again there is still difference between genres in metal, the period when some materials were written and cultural background. This is blatant generalisation which really does not serve any purpose .

4) The gender/appearance of female band members tends to be the focus of fans, rather than their musical ability.

-Yes, i think that is at least partly true unfortunately . However this is not the case in metal alone , but a wider problem in contemporary society and culture (Sex sells doesn't it?).

5) It is annoying being the only female band on a lineup.

-What ? Are they serious on this one?

6) It is condescending when promoters run gigs with only female bands on the lineup.

-This is no win situation. I guess i agree to some extent however we really must pay attention to the circumstances of such events (or the reasons behind this).


My stance is simple : what you have between your legs have no significance when i listen to your material, and people who really care for this are really better off left in middle ages where they belong.

Quote:

1) It's hard to walk into a room and not look like anyone else (referring to things like gigs)

Really not an issue. There are seemingly no women on metal sites, but in actual venues the ratio is a lot fairer.

Quote:
2) Women are given a 'pop quiz' of sorts by men about their knowledge of metal. They essentially have to go above and beyond to prove themselves.

Applies to everything, not just metal. "You like video games? Aww that's cute, go back to your Mario and Angry Birds." "You're a diamond League of Legends player? How is being a support one-trick being carried by your boyfriend going for you?" And it gets even more and more specific. There's no escape from it. You get used to it and it makes it all the more satisfying to make them look like fools. But it's also not exclusive to women, gatekeeping happens from elitists all the time. It just happens more often to women for various reasons.

Quote:
3) Metal lyrical themes and imagery are often based around the sexual objectification of women and glorification of masculinity.

When the vast, vast majority of metal musicians are male, of course it's going to be masculine. Metal started masculine and has always been masculine, always will be. I listen to Chimaira and Fear Factory BECAUSE of how masculine they are. It's meaty workout music, you're not going to get blood pumping from more feminine bands like Draconian or My Dying Bride. And that brings me to my other point that there is feminine music out there. No, not "girly" music, but more effeminate sounds and themes. Despite having no female members in the band, Turn Loose The Swans by My Dying Bride had a lot of lyricism based on a female perspective, and the music in general was a lot softer and more vulnerable compared to most other bands at the time. There's a place for music like that to coexist with the Hammer Smashed Faces of the world. If you don't like masculine metal, you don't have to listen to masculine metal.

Yeah, there's a lot of sexual lyricism (a lot of it, well... non-consenting), but that's because that's how metal is. It's over-the-top and pretty much nobody legitimately believes what they write. It's there for shock value, going to the territories that no other genre wants to. It's only a problem when it's unironic, like Thy Art Is Murder's old vocalist for Infinite Death who legitimately hated women. Even then, just because I get offended and uncomfortable by it existing doesn't mean that it's illegal. Brendan has much of a right to write about women being putrid wastes of space as I do to call him out for it. It was a serious negative spot on the band for quite a few people and they became much better received when they kicked him from the band. THAT is how you deal with blatant sexism.

Quote:
4) The gender/appearance of female band members tends to be the focus of fans, rather than their musical ability.

This one is a bit more complicated. A lot of female band members end up getting promoted and advertised as a selling point, which leads to that perception. Vocalists in general get a lot of attention because that's kind of their job as frontmen, it's not a male/female thing. Elize Ryd (Amaranthe) probably doesn't mind the million comments about how hot she is (some by me), because she presents herself that way. Her stage presence, dance moves, clothing, practically everything about her is sexualized. And it's completely intentional. For women playing other instruments, they only are in the spotlight if they choose to. Sure, they'll get a comment or two, but if you're not used to that then you shouldn't be a touring member.

If anything, the opposite problem is prevalent. A little more often than it should be, someone rants about how they hate female-fronted bands and then call women "bitches" or "sluts", BUT DON'T WORRY HE MENTIONS ENSIFERUM'S KEYBOARDIST AS OKAY SO HE'S NOT SEXIST. I wish I could find the name of that fallacy, it's similar to the famous "I'm not racist, I have a black friend" defense.

Quote:
5) It is annoying being the only female band on a lineup.

From what I've heard, this is only an issue when interacting with smaller bands. Most of the time harassment drama comes up, it's some no-name band getting drunk and/or trying to get attention.

Quote:
6) It is condescending when promoters run gigs with only female bands on the lineup.

Not necessarily. Female-fronted bands have a bit of a different vibe to them, and I don't see what's wrong with basing an entire lineup on that. It's not any weirder than basing an entire lineup on being mathy, or remotely -core, or anything along those lines.

So pretty much, the topics are either very irrelevant, or not metal-specific. Metal is only very slightly more sexist than other communities with similar gender ratios.

Written by Overrwatcher on 16.10.2016 at 05:01


When the vast, vast majority of metal musicians are male, of course it's going to be masculine. Metal started masculine and has always been masculine, always will be. I listen to Chimaira and Fear Factory BECAUSE of how masculine they are. It's meaty workout music, you're not going to get blood pumping from more feminine bands like Draconian or My Dying Bride. And that brings me to my other point that there is feminine music out there. No, not "girly" music, but more effeminate sounds and themes. Despite having no female members in the band, Turn Loose The Swans by My Dying Bride had a lot of lyricism based on a female perspective, and the music in general was a lot softer and more vulnerable compared to most other bands at the time. There's a place for music like that to coexist with the Hammer Smashed Faces of the world. If you don't like masculine metal, you don't have to listen to masculine metal.

Female-fronted bands have a bit of a different vibe to them, and I don't see what's wrong with basing an entire lineup on that. It's not any weirder than basing an entire lineup on being mathy, or remotely -core, or anything along those lines.

I just want to preface this by saying that I agree with basically everything you said and that it's nice to get a woman's opinion. But to play devil's advocate for the sake of discussion, there are 2 counterpoints I think the women in the video would have for the above points you made, and I'd be interested to hear your thoughts:

I've often heard the argument made that the idea of 'masculine' and 'feminine' traits is in itself nothing more than sexist social constructs. That to think that women are inherently more caring, nurturing, gentler; and that men are more aggressive, better leaders, assertive etc. is a sexist stereotype. The people who hold this viewpoint say that the real reason men and women act differently is because they are brainwashed by a pariarchal society. I would make the argument that there is really no way of knowing if it is more biological or social that determines these traits. But that if I had to guess, I think it makes more sense from an evolutionary perspective that this is just a genetic difference, because it would have aided in survival (e.g. women are generally weaker so they mind the children and gather food etc. while men hunt).

I also think that the reason they are offended by the idea of an all female lineup is because it promotes the concept of female metal being a genre of sorts, as if it is a novelty. I kind of agree with them, but at the same time I'm not sure what they think the solution is. I certainly don't think that promoters should be putting female bands on a lineup just for the sake of making it a 50/50 gender split.

Written by Zombie94 on 16.10.2016 at 19:04

I certainly don't think that promoters should be putting female bands on a lineup just for the sake of making it a 50/50 gender split.

This is the kind of prejudice I hoped not to see in this thread. Even though the topic is interesting the argumentation becomes too low with nonsense like that. I suggest you listen to this:



And this:



Ask kindly if you want some more recs

Written by Guest on 17.10.2016 at 14:30

This is the kind of prejudice I hoped not to see in this thread. Even though the topic is interesting the argumentation becomes too low with nonsense like that. I suggest you listen to this:

I think you misunderstood him. Basically what he's saying is that he doesn't want female oriented bands shoehorned into line-ups just for the sake of it, regardless of quality or at the expense of good other bands which may be male oriented. It's actually prejudice to force a gender split because you're favouring a gender instead of focusing on quality. Finding two good bands with women in doesn't mean that half of the metal bands today are female oriented, or that all bands with women in deserve spots on line-ups. Quality of band comes first, regardless of gender.

Written by Guest on 17.10.2016 at 15:32

Written by Guest on 17.10.2016 at 14:30

This is the kind of prejudice I hoped not to see in this thread. Even though the topic is interesting the argumentation becomes too low with nonsense like that. I suggest you listen to this:

I think you misunderstood him. Basically what he's saying is that he doesn't want female oriented bands shoehorned into line-ups just for the sake of it, regardless of quality or at the expense of good other bands which may be male oriented. It's actually prejudice to force a gender split because you're favouring a gender instead of focusing on quality. Finding two good bands with women in doesn't mean that half of the metal bands today are female oriented, or that all bands with women in deserve spots on line-ups. Quality of band comes first, regardless of gender.

I can read I didnt misunderstand him, anyone that thinks that female bands needs special treatment these days is probably ill-informed or is prejudiced. I am sorry to have to include you in to that category. Female metal-musicians plays a big role in metal changing in to something a lot more interestingv these days. They dont have to be at a 50/50 split to do that, Platos academy wasnt half of the greeks either

Written by Guest on 17.10.2016 at 15:54

I can read I didnt misunderstand him, anyone that thinks that female bands needs special treatment these days is probably ill-informed or is prejudiced. I am sorry to have to include you in to that category. Female metal-musicians plays a big role in metal changing in to something a lot more interestingv these days. They dont have to be at a 50/50 split to do that, Platos academy wasnt half of the greeks either

*massive facepalm*

"Special treatment..." Exactly what you're proposing: Include women in line-ups because they're women, not because of their abilities. Congratulations on accidental sexism and damaging your own agenda.

Written by Guest on 17.10.2016 at 15:59

Written by Guest on 17.10.2016 at 15:54

I can read I didnt misunderstand him, anyone that thinks that female bands needs special treatment these days is probably ill-informed or is prejudiced. I am sorry to have to include you in to that category. Female metal-musicians plays a big role in metal changing in to something a lot more interestingv these days. They dont have to be at a 50/50 split to do that, Platos academy wasnt half of the greeks either

*massive facepalm*

"Special treatment..." Exactly what you're proposing: Include women in line-ups because they're women, not because of their abilities. Congratulations on accidental sexism and damaging your own agenda.

I think you read that a bit too hasty

Written by Guest on 17.10.2016 at 16:03

I think you read that a bit hasty

I don't think you even know what you're arguing about or for tbh. The 50 /50 thing is just an arbitrary number, but what it signifies is that all line-up additions should be taken on merit, not sex or gender. To include untalented or flat-out bad female fronted or oriented bands on bills simply for the sake of getting female bands on there is a disservice to women in general as it belittles their abilities. If you think otherwise you are either sexist or ignorant.

Written by Guest on 17.10.2016 at 16:07

Written by Guest on 17.10.2016 at 16:03

I think you read that a bit hasty

I don't think you even know what you're arguing about or for tbh. The 50 /50 thing is just an arbitrary number, but what it signifies is that all line-up additions should be taken on merit, not sex or gender. To include untalented or flat-out bad female fronted or oriented bands on bills simply for the sake of getting female bands on there is a disservice to women in general as it belittles their abilities. If you think otherwise you are either sexist or ignorant.

Hows the reading today?

Written by Guest on 17.10.2016 at 16:09

Hows the reading today?

Perhaps you should go back and make an appropriate reply to this point before interrogating my reading comprehension.

Quote:
I certainly don't think that promoters should be putting female bands on a lineup just for the sake of making it a 50/50 gender split.

Written by Guest on 17.10.2016 at 15:54

Written by Guest on 17.10.2016 at 15:32

Written by Guest on 17.10.2016 at 14:30

This is the kind of prejudice I hoped not to see in this thread. Even though the topic is interesting the argumentation becomes too low with nonsense like that. I suggest you listen to this:

I think you misunderstood him. Basically what he's saying is that he doesn't want female oriented bands shoehorned into line-ups just for the sake of it, regardless of quality or at the expense of good other bands which may be male oriented. It's actually prejudice to force a gender split because you're favouring a gender instead of focusing on quality. Finding two good bands with women in doesn't mean that half of the metal bands today are female oriented, or that all bands with women in deserve spots on line-ups. Quality of band comes first, regardless of gender.

I can read I didnt misunderstand him, anyone that thinks that female bands needs special treatment these days is probably ill-informed or is prejudiced. I am sorry to have to include you in to that category. Female metal-musicians plays a big role in metal changing in to something a lot more interestingv these days. They dont have to be at a 50/50 split to do that, Platos academy wasnt half of the greeks either

Please read this again properly.

Written by Guest on 17.10.2016 at 16:14

Please read this again properly.

The whole point is that what he said is not inherently prejudiced. That was your misunderstanding. Your reply was practically a non-sequitur.

Written by Guest on 17.10.2016 at 15:32


I think you misunderstood him. Basically what he's saying is that he doesn't want female oriented bands shoehorned into line-ups just for the sake of it, regardless of quality or at the expense of good other bands which may be male oriented. It's actually prejudice to force a gender split because you're favouring a gender instead of focusing on quality. Finding two good bands with women in doesn't mean that half of the metal bands today are female oriented, or that all bands with women in deserve spots on line-ups. Quality of band comes first, regardless of gender.

Thank you J.O.O.E, that was exactly what I meant.

Written by Guest on 17.10.2016 at 16:15

Written by Guest on 17.10.2016 at 16:14

Please read this again properly.

The whole point is that what he said is not inherently prejudiced. That was your misunderstanding. Your reply was practically a non-sequitur.

Still not reading?

Written by Guest on 17.10.2016 at 16:19

Still not reading?

Well it seems that ZOMBIESiTellsYa knew exactly what I was talking about, and I he, which begs the question: what the hell were you on about? Seems like the second time you've failed to adequately comprehend this topic; the other time when you waded in, didn't read the first post info, made an irrelevant point then blamed the OP for not explaining it all in the title. You seem to like blaming others for your failings.

Written by Guest on 17.10.2016 at 14:30


This is the kind of prejudice I hoped not to see in this thread. Even though the topic is interesting the argumentation becomes too low with nonsense like that. I suggest you listen to this:

As !J.O.O.E! has already explained, you've misunderstood my point.

It does not help women if promoters feel pressured into putting female bands into a lineup just to make it an even gender split. This in itself would be sexist because you would potentially be kicking better male bands off the bill in place of a worse female band just because of what genitals they have between their legs. This would also propagate the false idea that female musicians can't be just as good as men.

As things stand, the majority of metal's musicians are male. So it is statistically highly unlikely that there would be more good female bands than male. If we ever reach the stage where there genuinely was something closer to a 50/50 gender split in metal's talent, then I have no problem with a lineup that was all female bands, so long as the music is good. It's when you artificially put bands up there to satisfy a gender quota, that is when I have a problem.

I'm interested in meritocracy, not identity politics.

Well that discussion took an interesting turn

Still can't get my head around what LoG thought Zombies meant? It seems plain as day to me.