Well, you cannot objectively discuss the existance or definition of a genre. A genre is not defined by a few educated masterminds above the common rabble who listen to music. The only real genres are born when a term is established well enough that you can use it to describe the music in any music/metal media worldwide and it's acknowledged. Language is given meaning by its users.

Written by IronAngel on 08.01.2008 at 00:41

Well, you cannot objectively discuss the existance or definition of a genre. A genre is not defined by a few educated masterminds above the common rabble who listen to music. The only real genres are born when a term is established well enough that you can use it to describe the music in any music/metal media worldwide and it's acknowledged. Language is given meaning by its users.

discussing about the genre is one thing, discussing about it's existence is another.

Written by IronAngel on 08.01.2008 at 00:41

Well, you cannot objectively discuss the existance or definition of a genre. A genre is not defined by a few educated masterminds above the common rabble who listen to music. The only real genres are born when a term is established well enough that you can use it to describe the music in any music/metal media worldwide and it's acknowledged. Language is given meaning by its users.

I could not say it better, like or not, these terms are coined when the majorities use them, like every democracy, the majority wins, and by looking the votes supporting it, its very safe to say that it really exists (considering that not only ppl in this site supports the title).
Also, the term "extreme" is not only for the lyrics, you can find another extreme elements in a lighter and melodic background, blast beats, D-beats, dissonance and so, I said it before and I will say it again, Extreme Power DO exists.

Well, I might argue the results of this poll. You can see that almost 1/3 of those who voted disagree with it. The result would be vastly different if you asked whether death metal was really a genre, for example. Furthermore, MetalStorm is a rather closed community with its own slang and opinions strongly influenced by the staff. Since the webzine introduces the term "extreme power metal", it's little wonder that frequent visitors (for whom MS may be the only metal media they know) acknowledge the genre more eagerly than someone who has never visited MS.

Whether or not "Extreme Power Metal" is a good term to describe the kind of music these bands play, it simply is not (in my experience) established enough to be considered a genre you could freely use where ever. Especially since bands that play this music can easily be described through established genres. Which do you think will be more commonly understood: "They play fast and somewhat aggressive power metal -style music, though with harsh vocals", or "They play extreme power metal"? In fact, the term "extreme power metal" brings to mind bands that are power metal to the extreme, certainly not something resembling power metal with characteristics of more extreme styles.

If you ask me, any subgenres of metal subgenres are useless. A style that has existed in any notable capacity for less than a decade in quite a small scene is not, IMO, established enough to be called its own independent genre.

Just try it. Go talk about Extreme Power Metal to people with only passing acquaintance to metal and who do not visit webzines. Or alternately, bring it up in public discussion through non-metal music magazines, and see if it's accepted. I doubt it. While I think it's a rather handy way to describe bands like Kalmah, I don't live in a bubble that's Metal Storm. Terminology this detailed can only be found in a relatively private fan community.

Written by IronAngel on 08.01.2008 at 22:32
You can see that almost 1/3 of those who voted disagree with it

I think you mean almost 1/5

I agreed with your earlier post... this one, I'm not so sure. The last bit about asking random people what they understand by "extreme power metal" - I could argue the same for plain old black metal, no one understands wtf that is until they have listened to a real decent amount.

I agree that extreme power may be ambiguous - I sometimes think Dragonforce are extreme power as well for different reasons - but what isn't? Sludge metal? What the flying fuck? There's like three different sounds that I would put under sludge. Thrash, people have differing ideas of thrash.

I removed my earlier post where I seconded the idea to lock this thread because I thought I looked like a censoring bastard. A guy on the previous page may have brought something new to the topic, or, and this is what I think, he misunderstood the question. After Damnated's elaboration on the contrast of discussing something vs discussing its existence, I really do agree with him.

(and one more agreement... with selken, because yes, the music does contain more extreme elements than you find in standard power metal)

I excluded those who voted that they did not care about it, but I accidentially ignored those who said "It's OK but I don't like it"; a strange opinion if I may say so. Sorry about that. Either way, 104 think it's correct and 44 think it's incorrect, which is quite a controversy. 13 seem too afraid to defy MS's definition even if they dislike it, or whatever the reason for their vote.

I may have exaggerated when I talked about someone with passing acquaintance to metal, but I mean a person who is reasonably familiar with the scene and reads a magazine every now and then. Let's face it, terms as various and detailed as those we use on MS are not widely used outside big-time fan communities.

Then again, I do agree that it's perhaps better to discuss the definition and it's accuracy rather than whether such a genre exists. A genre's existance has to be experienced in practice, not proved in theory. On a theoretical level, though, we can look at bands that are generally (in MS's context) defined as "Extreme Power Metal" and wonder whether the description is accurate. Personally, I don't like it a lot because Power Metal as I know it is defined mostly by the energetic power and vocal style it's known for. Melodic riffs and keyboard masturbation don't make a Power Metal band, in my opinion. In this genre, the vocal melodies really are one of the most important characteristics.

Written by IronAngel on 08.01.2008 at 22:32

Since the webzine introduces the term "extreme power metal", it's little wonder that frequent visitors (for whom MS may be the only metal media they know) acknowledge the genre more eagerly than someone who has never visited MS.

thing is, this term was not introduced by the MS staff. it was introduced by critics/reviewers all around the metal world. it is not an obscure term at all.

Truly? Hum, I must be out of the loop, then. I have never seen it anywhere else. Granted, I haven't been reading international metal magazines a lot lately. If it truly is a common term in various independent mediums, I take back my argument against it being established.

Written by IronAngel on 08.01.2008 at 23:42

Truly? Hum, I must be out of the loop, then. I have never seen it anywhere else. Granted, I haven't been reading international metal magazines a lot lately. If it truly is a common term in various independent mediums, I take back my argument against it being established.

Like what Kerang or what it calls I had seen such therm in 'Swedish rock magazine'' even if it was in Swenska I saw it about Kalmah it was 'extreme power''

Written by selken on 08.01.2008 at 18:32

Written by IronAngel on 08.01.2008 at 00:41

Well, you cannot objectively discuss the existance or definition of a genre. A genre is not defined by a few educated masterminds above the common rabble who listen to music. The only real genres are born when a term is established well enough that you can use it to describe the music in any music/metal media worldwide and it's acknowledged. Language is given meaning by its users.

I could not say it better, like or not, these terms are coined when the majorities use them, like every democracy, the majority wins, and by looking the votes supporting it, its very safe to say that it really exists (considering that not only ppl in this site supports the title).
Also, the term "extreme" is not only for the lyrics, you can find another extreme elements in a lighter and melodic background, blast beats, D-beats, dissonance and so, I said it before and I will say it again, Extreme Power DO exists.

Damn... I thought a democracy was about representing everybody's interest, not the majority's. Up to this moment, I honestly believed that if the whole world wanted A, except for one person, who wanted B, killing that person to make everybody happy would still not be democratic. My life is a lie. At least I have Satan to kill myself for.

Oh, and don't mistake vocal style for lyrics. [friendly advice]

On the other hand, you're right. There is such a genre IMO. I think it serves to fill a huge gap between power metal and extreme metal. I, however, have not yet had the pleasure of meeting a lot of power metallers who like extreme elements. I see it more like another successful experiment by extreme metallers. Do correct me if I'm writing a lot of bullshit, I never really got into power metal.

Written by IronAngel on 08.01.2008 at 23:42

Truly? Hum, I must be out of the loop, then. I have never seen it anywhere else. Granted, I haven't been reading international metal magazines a lot lately. If it truly is a common term in various independent mediums, I take back my argument against it being established.

You haven't really looked then, just waited for it to come your way, huh?

http://www.metal-archives.com/band.php?id=13476
http://www.metal-archives.com/band.php?id=31929

And I say we could safely call something like "blackened power metal" "extreme power metal"...

http://www.metal-archives.com/band.php?id=7881
http://www.metal-archives.com/band.php?id=34903
http://www.metal-archives.com/band.php?id=97528

Written by Xaphiris on 09.01.2008 at 01:51
I, however, have not yet had the pleasure of meeting a lot of power metallers who like extreme elements. I see it more like another successful experiment by extreme metallers. Do correct me if I'm writing a lot of bullshit, I never really got into power metal.

Remove the harsh vox and you basically get Dragonforce, who are essentially THE power metal band of today. The music of bands like CoB has an obvious power metal foundation. About the fans, search "bodom" in the top right box on this page and you'll see a quarter of their fans also like Nightwish and/or Sonata Arctica.

Written by IronAngel on 08.01.2008 at 22:32



If you ask me, any subgenres of metal subgenres are useless.

So accroding to this epic doom, traditional doom, death, black/doom, drone doom, should all be called doom metal?

same for

Melodic black metal, symphonic balck metal, raw black metal...

subgenres are good
when I'm looking for brutal death metal, i dont want to end up with something like wintersun or in flames

Written by Marcel Hubregtse on 09.01.2008 at 08:24

Written by IronAngel on 08.01.2008 at 22:32



If you ask me, any subgenres of metal subgenres are useless.

So accroding to this epic doom, traditional doom, death, black/doom, drone doom, should all be called doom metal?

same for

Melodic black metal, symphonic balck metal, raw black metal...

Erm.. yes? That's quite enough for me, at least. Note that, for me, there's a clear difference between descirbing a band and creating a whole genre.

Black metal is suitably vague to succesfully label several bands with. When you talk about "symphonic black metal", however, you are no longer talking about a distinct genre. You are describing black metal music that is symphonic. Even the words "symphonic black metal" tell that. Semantics, perhaps, yet a distinction worth making.


@Xaphiris: I said I haven't paid attention to a lot of international media lately. Generally, though, you don't have to look for a term to make sure it exists; if you do, it's clearly not established. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, though, as I honestly have not been reading international metal magazines for two years now. However, quoting Metal-Archives as empirical evidence is not very thorough work. It's one website, much like MetalStorm, with its own culture and its active users.


In the end, I guess it's all about how loose your definition of "genre" is. I've made my point by now, and I've faced many good counter arguments. There's no single definition of the term in music, so it remains an open question.

Written by Guest on 20.01.2008 at 22:51

Yes I think Power Extreme it' s a good label but maybe Melodic Death/Power Metal sounds better!!!!

what maybe more details

Written by Guest on 20.01.2008 at 23:19

I think those bands combine Melodic Death elements with Power Metal elements. Maybe some bands the vocals become blackish but the previous label attracts more the listener even clean Death Metal fans thats my opinion.

Melodic Death maybe lil but more I say its speed metal whit power metal, becaus efor example CoF are werry fast power , and vocals isnt typical death metal growls, its hard to desrcibe those genres and define tham

I don't think COF can be considered power metal at all.

Written by Number Juan on 21.01.2008 at 07:31

I don't think COF can be considered power metal at all.

and what is CoB?

Written by Bad English on 21.01.2008 at 10:32

Written by Number Juan on 21.01.2008 at 07:31

I don't think COF can be considered power metal at all.

and what is CoB?

COF: Cradle Of Filth
COB: Children of Bodom

Written by FOOCK Nam on 21.01.2008 at 11:32

Written by Bad English on 21.01.2008 at 10:32

Written by Number Juan on 21.01.2008 at 07:31

I don't think COF can be considered power metal at all.

and what is CoB?

COF: Cradle Of Filth
COB: Children of Bodom

I know man I know I mean what he tginks what genre are CoB

COB and COF are not alike. COF is Extreme metal with gothic elements. COB is extreme power metal.

My point still stands COF is NOT extreme power metal... or any kind of power metal for that matter.

Written by Number Juan on 21.01.2008 at 20:56

My point still stands COF is NOT extreme power metal... or any kind of power metal for that matter.

who said that Cradle of filth played power metal?

Written by Bad English on 20.01.2008 at 23:21

Written by Guest on 20.01.2008 at 23:19

I think those bands combine Melodic Death elements with Power Metal elements. Maybe some bands the vocals become blackish but the previous label attracts more the listener even clean Death Metal fans thats my opinion.

Melodic Death maybe lil but more I say its speed metal whit power metal, becaus efor example CoF are werry fast power, and vocals isnt typical death metal growls, its hard to desrcibe those genres and define tham

Written by Number Juan on 21.01.2008 at 21:15

Written by Bad English on 20.01.2008 at 23:21

Written by Guest on 20.01.2008 at 23:19

I think those bands combine Melodic Death elements with Power Metal elements. Maybe some bands the vocals become blackish but the previous label attracts more the listener even clean Death Metal fans thats my opinion.

Melodic Death maybe lil but more I say its speed metal whit power metal, becaus efor example CoF are werry fast power, and vocals isnt typical death metal growls, its hard to desrcibe those genres and define tham

where are quote measige?

I quoted your message to show you said COF were power metal, which they are not.

Written by Number Juan on 21.01.2008 at 21:34

I quoted your message to show you said COF were power metal, which they are not.

and what is CoB? I mean COB I know what is COF it was stippid alcoholacl overdose error

COF is extreme metal with Gothic, symphonic and the occasional black metal touches. The fact that they have symphonic/epic touches does not constitute power metal. If anything, they are closer to Gothic metal than power metal.

Written by Number Juan on 21.01.2008 at 21:45

COF is extreme metal with Gothic, symphonic and the occasional black metal touches. The fact that they have symphonic/epic touches does not constitute power metal. If anything, they are closer to Gothic metal than power metal.

I know what is CoF I know it some 6 years now !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

They are not power metal. I just don't hear it.