Written by InnerSelf on 06.01.2013 at 00:10

always escape the western media.

Honestly, all depends on where you look. But considering how western goverments prefer Al-Assad to leave, I'd say it's quite the contrary with some medias (at least in Spain, it's crazy how the national channels/papers are biased).

Like Candlemass said above, when you have both sides doing shit, you can't expect a bright future under the rule of any of them... which is indeed sad.

Written by Guest on 01.01.2013 at 16:07

I am only christ by nationality but I have sympathy for all people thereatened by Islam, Nationalism, Hindufanatism, Ethnocenrism, Christian Fundamentalism and Co.

Nationalism isn't an evil, and should not be compared to the other ''isms'' you have here.

Now, can nationalism be an evil? Well yes, like anything. But making it an inherent evil in itself is not honest.

Written by SilentScream on 08.01.2013 at 21:01

Written by Guest on 01.01.2013 at 16:07

I am only christ by nationality but I have sympathy for all people thereatened by Islam, Nationalism, Hindufanatism, Ethnocenrism, Christian Fundamentalism and Co.

Nationalism isn't an evil, and should not be compared to the other ''isms'' you have here.

Now, can nationalism be an evil? Well yes, like anything. But making it an inherent evil in itself is not honest.

Not realy, nationalist societies rely on the concept of enemies who are most often the neighbour countries, religious/ethnic minorities.. The own group, nation is in opposite to the enemy group. As example the christians in the nationalistic Turkey and other muslim countries who serve as enemy stereotype.

Written by Guest on 08.01.2013 at 22:21

Written by SilentScream on 08.01.2013 at 21:01

Written by Guest on 01.01.2013 at 16:07

I am only christ by nationality but I have sympathy for all people thereatened by Islam, Nationalism, Hindufanatism, Ethnocenrism, Christian Fundamentalism and Co.

Nationalism isn't an evil, and should not be compared to the other ''isms'' you have here.

Now, can nationalism be an evil? Well yes, like anything. But making it an inherent evil in itself is not honest.

Not realy, nationalist societies rely on the concept of an enemies who are the neighbour countries , religious/ethnic minorities where the own group, nation is in opposite to the enemy group. As example the christians in the nationalistic Turkey and other muslim countries who serve as enemy stereotype.

In fact, no. Nationalities are not fundamentally based on enmity towards others. As stressed earlier, it CAN be. But it is wrong to say that it intrinsically so.

I suggest you read on the concept of nationalism. Books such as those of Montserrat Guibernau would be a good start.

I'm going to make this easy. Look at all the military confrontations and disturbances that took place in the last 10 years. And out of all of them, how many of them have Islam been directly or indirectly involved. How many have Christianity, Buddhism, Judaism, Hinduism, Taoism or any other religion involved? Now I am not saying that other religions are saintly, but comparatively there really is a disproportionate amount of violence today from the Islamic side and there is only so many times you can blame it on "the other guy". Just sayin'

Written by Sinnercist on 21.02.2013 at 02:52

I'm going to make this easy. Look at all the military confrontations and disturbances that took place in the last 10 years. And out of all of them, how many of them have Islam been directly or indirectly involved. How many have Christianity, Buddhism, Judaism, Hinduism, Taoism or any other religion involved? Now I am not saying that other religions are saintly, but comparatively there really is a disproportionate amount of violence today from the Islamic side and there is only so many times you can blame it on "the other guy". Just sayin'

I agree with you to an extent, however, the reason why Islam has exploded is because they are funded by various organizations to do so. The Catholic Church, CIA, MI5, Corporations...there is a lot of money to be made from wars, conflicts and reorganization of the Middle East. However, radical Islam is a big problem, and it is a problem that the West (USA, EU) does not want resovled, because they are making money.
I am anti all religions, but in the war like situation, I would back the Xtians, because they are lesser evil.

Written by Rasputin on 14.04.2013 at 02:22

I agree with you to an extent, however, the reason why Islam has exploded is because they are funded by various organizations to do so. The Catholic Church, CIA, MI5, Corporations...there is a lot of money to be made from wars, conflicts and reorganization of the Middle East. However, radical Islam is a big problem, and it is a problem that the West (USA, EU) does not want resovled, because they are making money.
I am anti all religions, but in the war like situation, I would back the Xtians, because they are lesser evil.

Not disagreeing, but only pointing out that Islam isn't exactly a favorable religion to have if one is striving to achieve peace and human rights. They seem to be the disproportionately bigger violators. Not a fan of organized religions as a whole, but often enough I can ignore the others; this one, not so much. I much rather deal with whiny Christians threatening to boycott rather than whiny Muslims threatening to kill, harm or maim.

Written by Sinnercist on 15.04.2013 at 17:51

Written by Rasputin on 14.04.2013 at 02:22

I agree with you to an extent, however, the reason why Islam has exploded is because they are funded by various organizations to do so. The Catholic Church, CIA, MI5, Corporations...there is a lot of money to be made from wars, conflicts and reorganization of the Middle East. However, radical Islam is a big problem, and it is a problem that the West (USA, EU) does not want resovled, because they are making money.
I am anti all religions, but in the war like situation, I would back the Xtians, because they are lesser evil.

Not disagreeing, but only pointing out that Islam isn't exactly a favorable religion to have if one is striving to achieve peace and human rights. They seem to be the disproportionately bigger violators. Not a fan of organized religions as a whole, but often enough I can ignore the others; this one, not so much. I much rather deal with whiny Christians threatening to boycott rather than whiny Muslims threatening to kill, harm or maim.

No arguments there. I think a lot of Islam is allowed to slide because of the lobby, but that is just my reasoning, because I am still trying to fathom why the hell does USA and EU defend the Islam so much. They say that they aren't but they are.

Written by Sinnercist on 15.04.2013 at 17:51

Written by Rasputin on 14.04.2013 at 02:22

I agree with you to an extent, however, the reason why Islam has exploded is because they are funded by various organizations to do so. The Catholic Church, CIA, MI5, Corporations...there is a lot of money to be made from wars, conflicts and reorganization of the Middle East. However, radical Islam is a big problem, and it is a problem that the West (USA, EU) does not want resovled, because they are making money.
I am anti all religions, but in the war like situation, I would back the Xtians, because they are lesser evil.

Not disagreeing, but only pointing out that Islam isn't exactly a favorable religion to have if one is striving to achieve peace and human rights. They seem to be the disproportionately bigger violators. Not a fan of organized religions as a whole, but often enough I can ignore the others; this one, not so much. I much rather deal with whiny Christians threatening to boycott rather than whiny Muslims threatening to kill, harm or maim.

No arguments there. I think a lot of Islam is allowed to slide because of the lobby, but that is just my reasoning, because I am still trying to fathom why the hell does USA and EU defend the Islam so much. They say that they aren't but they are.

You folks seem to be speaking of Islam as if it is of a cohesive unit, something which can be held accountable in and of itself. I don't think a religion can be said to be responsible for anything, because the reality is that such a definition is far too simplified for sake of brevity and ease of argumentation. Its the particular bodies and groups of individuals which adhere to Islam which should be held accountable, not the spiritual doctrine itself. Is such the root of all the evil? I suppose you could argue such, but I think you could, on the other hand, argue the case for it being the source of much good in it being a primary component of cultural affluence and diversity within certain contexts. Frankly to deny that there is no benefit from religion, I think, is to delude yourself.
Islam cops a lot of negative attention, and not unjustly so. Yet just as unjustly I'd wager its positive aspects are passed over. I suppose the question is does the negative outweigh the positive? And that's something of which I don't think any consensus can be established at all as it depends upon various interpretations of what good or bad a religion inspires of its advocates.

Written by Bad English on 16.04.2013 at 02:15

Written by Rasputin on 14.04.2013 at 02:22

Written by Sinnercist on 21.02.2013 at 02:52

I'm going to make this easy. Look at all the military confrontations and disturbances that took place in the last 10 years. And out of all of them, how many of them have Islam been directly or indirectly involved. How many have Christianity, Buddhism, Judaism, Hinduism, Taoism or any other religion involved? Now I am not saying that other religions are saintly, but comparatively there really is a disproportionate amount of violence today from the Islamic side and there is only so many times you can blame it on "the other guy". Just sayin'

I agree with you to an extent, however, the reason why Islam has exploded is because they are funded by various organizations to do so. The Catholic Church, CIA, MI5, Corporations...there is a lot of money to be made from wars, conflicts and reorganization of the Middle East. However, radical Islam is a big problem, and it is a problem that the West (USA, EU) does not want resovled, because they are making money.
I am anti all religions, but in the war like situation, I would back the Xtians, because they are lesser evil.

rdaical islam is big treth to civilians life... Boston today , well till officaly is not annouced blame, we cant judge but Al Wuaida is much weeker after NATO invade in Sfgantstan, it is pitty nobody cares about Africa, seems only France... ppl dont see radicalism is close to Europe, and sorry even if I sound rasistic now, I do not wnat see any kind radical islam in Europe and in the world, calm islam I wont mind, but no radical religions

Well that is just the issue, which ones cannot go radical in a drop of a hat? Look at the former Yugoslavia, that is the perfect example how a "peaceful" muslim explodes into a fanatical terrorist over night. Europe is not safe from this religion. They are playing games right now, we are nice, we are nice, until we get a foothold, then it will be too late. Look at Albanians, same problem.

Written by R'Vannith on 16.04.2013 at 07:56

You folks seem to be speaking of Islam as if it is of a cohesive unit, something which can be held accountable in and of itself. I don't think a religion can be said to be responsible for anything, because the reality is that such a definition is far too simplified for sake of brevity and ease of argumentation. Its the particular bodies and groups of individuals which adhere to Islam which should be held accountable, not the spiritual doctrine itself. Is such the root of all the evil? I suppose you could argue such, but I think you could, on the other hand, argue the case for it being the source of much good in it being a primary component of cultural affluence and diversity within certain contexts. Frankly to deny that there is no benefit from religion, I think, is to delude yourself.
Islam cops a lot of negative attention, and not unjustly so. Yet just as unjustly I'd wager its positive aspects are passed over. I suppose the question is does the negative outweigh the positive? And that's something of which I don't think any consensus can be established at all as it depends upon various interpretations of what good or bad a religion inspires of its advocates.

The spiritual doctrine itself is for killing infidels, so tell me if that is a peaceful religion. Actually, Christianity is not a peaceful religion either, but they passed their conquering days, that were Catholic Church instructed campaigns of death. Islam never did that, they still remained old school and that is why they are such a threat.

Written by Rasputin on 16.04.2013 at 21:54

The spiritual doctrine itself is for killing infidels, so tell me if that is a peaceful religion. Actually, Christianity is not a peaceful religion either, but they passed their conquering days, that were Catholic Church instructed campaigns of death. Islam never did that, they still remained old school and that is why they are such a threat.

Such an interpretation isn't uncommon, that Islam promotes within its doctrine the eradication of infidel. But I wonder can you conclusively determine whether there is no element of said doctrine which promotes peace, or at least societal behaviours from which peace can develop from, culturally speaking? It seems you have a focus for the negative, as I said, and ignore any possibility of positive aspects.

Let me tell you something, generalizing people is not really the logical side we can take, I mean I have lived people who have always hated Jews , but do I hate Jews too ? not at all ! And I actually hate those who are trying to spread the hate on any kind of group of people with a special tag on them.But on the other hand I can't really tell you that Islam is a religion of peace and friendship, it is not ! Because of the people it has trained through its teachings and ideologies, most of them are not peaceful and friendly people I said most of them, and most of them can't stand any one out of their ideology , most of them are like deaf and blind people who wants to shout their opinion and they don't have any tendency to hear the others' .And I can't really say that Islamic teachings didn't have any effect to train such people out of its ideology. I can't really deny that Muslims are not going to accept an infidel living among them. They don't want to hear opposing opinions to theirs.And yes their holy book had insisted on killing Infidels and also they know infidels as dirt , it means that if I as one infidel enters a muslim's house , they may avoid shaking hands with me , and they may clean their house after I leave, how can you expect peace and friendship from such people ? Ok I know all of them are not like that ,they're trying to show a nice face out of muslims, but really they can't, the teachings of Islam and their holy book is filled with wars and being enemy to anyone around them. I should tell you another example there are still muslim people that I know who really suffers from being totally ignorant, they even can't help reading books or reading some knowledge on internet, they always think that all those books and all those stuffs are written by some other none believers who are lost and moving against the God's Will ! Fuck it ! When a teacher at university with master degree with knowing English Language can't still discuss the issue of Thrash Metal logically with me, just because it's against Islam and God's will,how can I accept them as having a nice face too ? I tried to explain that lady, about music and where Thrash Metal comes from, what is it musically and lyrically, and she just stared at me and said be careful not becoming like them, drinking piss of the Thrash Metal Singer and getting and hallucinated by the that piss ! All of my life I have live with muslims, but all I can say they don't have no tolerance with other kind people at all,I have seen people whose families got separated because of that,besides what kind of respect do they really feel for women? wrapping them in veils ? Fuck it again ! I have never experienced anything besides getting suppressed in the name of God and holy book and Islam ! Their opinions are dangerous, they don't see others as legitimate as themselves and the clashes start from this.

Written by R'Vannith on 18.04.2013 at 07:20

Such an interpretation isn't uncommon, that Islam promotes within its doctrine the eradication of infidel. But I wonder can you conclusively determine whether there is no element of said doctrine which promotes peace, or at least societal behaviours from which peace can develop from, culturally speaking? It seems you have a focus for the negative, as I said, and ignore any possibility of positive aspects.

At least you got the issue right (or the key word concerning it) - interpretation. This topic turns into waste when people (adherents and opponents) start talking of "true Islam/what Islam REALLY says". There is no theological truth to discover; only people with different interpretations; some disturbing and some not.
BTW Looking forcefully for positive aspects won't help you wash away the negative; sometimes peace just ain't worth it.
Maybe Western society hasn't become anti-war as much as fat, dumb and happy.

This might be aside from the talk at hand, but I was hanging out with some of my muslim friends the other day and they told me that if you divorce a woman, and then want her back later - it is in their belief that she must sleep with another man first before they can remarry.

Also, another interesting thing someone told is that in islam if you cook food and someone else smells it, you must feed them as well. Not saying anything negative or positive, just thought it was interesting to share.

Written by Sunioj on 18.04.2013 at 22:01

This might be aside from the talk at hand, but I was hanging out with some of my muslim friends the other day and they told me that if you divorce a woman, and then want her back later - it is in their belief that she must sleep with another man first before they can remarry.

Also, another interesting thing someone told is that in islam if you cook food and someone else smells it, you must feed them as well. Not saying anything negative or positive, just thought it was interesting to share.

yeah, sounds like the 'do and don'ts' of an orthodox religion community. Doesn't sound like a theology thou.

Written by Candlemass on 18.04.2013 at 22:09

yeah, sounds like the 'do and don'ts' of an orthodox religion community. Doesn't sound like a theology thou.

indeed, i was thinking the same thing myself. i think these rules are mainly reflective of a culture rather than something set in stone.

Written by R'Vannith on 18.04.2013 at 07:20

Written by Rasputin on 16.04.2013 at 21:54

The spiritual doctrine itself is for killing infidels, so tell me if that is a peaceful religion. Actually, Christianity is not a peaceful religion either, but they passed their conquering days, that were Catholic Church instructed campaigns of death. Islam never did that, they still remained old school and that is why they are such a threat.

Such an interpretation isn't uncommon, that Islam promotes within its doctrine the eradication of infidel. But I wonder can you conclusively determine whether there is no element of said doctrine which promotes peace, or at least societal behaviours from which peace can develop from, culturally speaking? It seems you have a focus for the negative, as I said, and ignore any possibility of positive aspects.

What positive aspects are you exactly talking about? I'm yet to see one. First of all, I wonder how much interaction have you had with the Islamic population at all? I know that there are Albanians in Australia, so I am just wondering on what exactly are you basing your oppinion on? I on the other hand have had a pretty good picture of who and what the muslims are. You want to see how great Islam is, read the history of Yugoslavia, check out what is going on in Kosovo, and then maybe you will begin to have an incling on what is going on.

Muslims are very good at infiltrating societies and nations. They start easy, few families here, few families there and pretty soon they begin to overpopulate a certain area, then they drop all the fake smiles and begin to expell anyone who is not a muslim.
Kosovo is a perfect example. They were allowed to move in, only few hundreds at first, they breathe like roaches 5-40 children per family, and soon enough begin to spread all the way around. In Kosovo they had all the rights and all the things they needed, however they chose to take what did not belong to them. So they commited ethnic cleansing and now they are spreading their mini empire to the surrounding nations for the purpose of creating Greater Albania.

So yeah. Islam is great.

Written by Rasputin on 19.04.2013 at 19:53

So yeah. Islam is great.

Ohh really? You had contact with Muslims and you have an example so you know 'Islam'?
Have you ever heard of 'unrepresentative sample'?

"what the muslims are". I know how I can know that - I'll just ask you to reveal the Platonic form of a "Muslim" to me.
A typical infantile racist attitude.

"infiltrating societies and nations...breathe like roaches"
You mean going somewhere else to find a better place to live? Yeah, orthodox religions tend to bring lots of kids into the world.
Your a have a dehumanising attitude of a jerktard.

Let me be clear on this; I ain't no Islam fan, I detest religions (orthodox mostly) in general (especially when they get into politics) and Islam as it is today seems to be the worst and most barbaric of type of religion; but the way you discuss issues isn't worthy of any subject regardless of my opinion of it.

Written by Candlemass on 19.04.2013 at 20:30

Written by Rasputin on 19.04.2013 at 19:53

So yeah. Islam is great.

Ohh really? You had contact with Muslims and you have an example so you know 'Islam'?
Have you ever heard of 'unrepresentative sample'?

"what the muslims are". I know how I can know that - I'll just ask you to reveal the Platonic form of a "Muslim" to me.
A typical infantile racist attitude.

"infiltrating societies and nations...breathe like roaches"
You mean going somewhere else to find a better place to live? Yeah, orthodox religions tend to bring lots of kids into the world.
Your a have a dehumanising attitude of a jerktard.

Let me be clear on this; I ain't no Islam fan, I detest religions (orthodox mostly) in general (especially when they get into politics) and Islam as it is today seems to be the worst and most barbaric of type of religion; but the way you discuss issues isn't worthy of any subject regardless of my opinion of it.

When they blow up your country, kill your people, burn your churches, destroy your cemetaries, sell your children to sex slave rings, harvest the organs of still living people, expell your people out, take possession of your land, then maybe you can open your mouth and comment on who and what they are. In the meantime, all your "philosophical" bullshit does not fly, one this is idea, the other thing is practice. And I am yet to see, a place where the muslims are not causing havoc everywhere they go.
Cute comment. If you love them so much, then you go with open hands and take them to your country.

PS No one asks you to comment on my posts.

I'm not Scandinavian; been there. You forgot that I'm Israeli and Jewish and that just what happened and happens. Still irrelevant to the truth of the proposition. There is no "they".
There are no "The Germans" who killed parts of my family or branded a number on my girl friend's Grandfather arm, since Germans living today and not the Germans that lived then. For the latest abuse; the intentional murder of 13 year old school girls and then celebrate as a hero by a sickening culture of hate.

And by the way, the tactic of fighting on the title of "victim" to victimize other people - it doesn't fly.

Philosophy is very practical contra-popular opinion.
If you ask yourself how Germans who knew Jewish sportsmen or serving military personnel and still thought the opposite of them - someone told them what the essence of a "Jew" is. And that isn't someone who does sport.
So contra to the data I can collect you want to join your ideology of hate and nonsense of "what a muslim is". At least try and make sense instead of being motivated towards a conclusion no matter how.

So how do you shoot at 80 school children and express pride for your actions? Yeah, you should figure that one out by now by yourself.
If your too thick to actually try and understand this and reply to it (like you were to comment "If you love them so much, then you go with open hands" after I addressed that) I'll save myself the effort of commenting on your posts.

You are reciting past events, that do not correlate with the current situation.
Germans have not changed, so while "they" may not be the same "they" that were parts of the movement during WWII, new "they" are following the same ideology, only it is hidden better this time. So the history will repeat itself.

I do not hate anyone, I do not trust them and I do not like them, that is all. And like I said, we can argue all day about what definition of a true muslim is, and that it varies from culture to culture. I say, the muslims that are in my part country, and that are spreading all across the Europe, are a disease, a malignant tumor that needs to be removed before it is too late. But unfortunately for that we will have another World War, since people do not see reason.

And you do not have to respond to my comments.

Written by Candlemass on 18.04.2013 at 21:18

Written by R'Vannith on 18.04.2013 at 07:20

Such an interpretation isn't uncommon, that Islam promotes within its doctrine the eradication of infidel. But I wonder can you conclusively determine whether there is no element of said doctrine which promotes peace, or at least societal behaviours from which peace can develop from, culturally speaking? It seems you have a focus for the negative, as I said, and ignore any possibility of positive aspects.

At least you got the issue right (or the key word concerning it) - interpretation. This topic turns into waste when people (adherents and opponents) start talking of "true Islam/what Islam REALLY says". There is no theological truth to discover; only people with different interpretations; some disturbing and some not.
BTW Looking forcefully for positive aspects won't help you wash away the negative; sometimes peace just ain't worth it.
Maybe Western society hasn't become anti-war as much as fat, dumb and happy.

You're right I think, forcefully looking for positive aspects won't wash away the negative. But failing to see the possibility of something positive arising, according to various interpretations, from Islamic doctrine only serves as making the negative seem all the more acute.

And I agree with you there, this "true Islam" or "what Islam REALLY says" is a meaningless proposition. Islam doesn't speak for itself. Islam is not an agent. The agency and speech is posited in particular interpretations.

What sunioj said is crucial I think: "these rules are mainly reflective of a culture rather than something set in stone" Where do we draw the line between culture and doctrine? And which is more responsible for the negative aspects we're talking about, is it the doctrine that is to blame, or the culture?

Written by Rasputin on 19.04.2013 at 19:53

Written by R'Vannith on 18.04.2013 at 07:20

Written by Rasputin on 16.04.2013 at 21:54

The spiritual doctrine itself is for killing infidels, so tell me if that is a peaceful religion. Actually, Christianity is not a peaceful religion either, but they passed their conquering days, that were Catholic Church instructed campaigns of death. Islam never did that, they still remained old school and that is why they are such a threat.

Such an interpretation isn't uncommon, that Islam promotes within its doctrine the eradication of infidel. But I wonder can you conclusively determine whether there is no element of said doctrine which promotes peace, or at least societal behaviours from which peace can develop from, culturally speaking? It seems you have a focus for the negative, as I said, and ignore any possibility of positive aspects.

What positive aspects are you exactly talking about? I'm yet to see one. First of all, I wonder how much interaction have you had with the Islamic population at all? I know that there are Albanians in Australia, so I am just wondering on what exactly are you basing your oppinion on? I on the other hand have had a pretty good picture of who and what the muslims are. You want to see how great Islam is, read the history of Yugoslavia, check out what is going on in Kosovo, and then maybe you will begin to have an incling on what is going on.

Muslims are very good at infiltrating societies and nations. They start easy, few families here, few families there and pretty soon they begin to overpopulate a certain area, then they drop all the fake smiles and begin to expell anyone who is not a muslim.
Kosovo is a perfect example. They were allowed to move in, only few hundreds at first, they breathe like roaches 5-40 children per family, and soon enough begin to spread all the way around. In Kosovo they had all the rights and all the things they needed, however they chose to take what did not belong to them. So they commited ethnic cleansing and now they are spreading their mini empire to the surrounding nations for the purpose of creating Greater Albania.

So yeah. Islam is great.

So far I haven't been "exactly talking" about any positive aspects, merely stating that to deny the possibility of such based upon keen focus on the negative is foolhardy. It seems considerably easier in this day and age to have something negative to say about Islam than something positive.

I'm a uni student, I live in a campus environment which caters for international students. I come into contact with Muslim students on a regular basis. From what I've observed their faith gives them their own identity and a sense of purpose in life. It is a part of their function, how they see the world is ultimately shaped through a faith based lens, granting them their own reason to proceed with their lives in way that they believe is best for them. That, to me, is the ultimate positive. What is more positive than a life of purpose? Your reference to points of negative connotations commonly said of selective geographic and historical contexts is merely conjecture and no where near sufficient to make such a sarcastic and scoffing judgement as "So yeah. Islam is great."

If you divorce Islam from a negative context it becomes easier to see how it forms such a positive framework for people's lives. Perhaps the environment in which I find myself is unique in that regard, but I doubt it and in fact I'm fairly certain that is not the case. So long as that life fulfillment that Islam grants doesn't result in violent and socially destructive behaviours then I fail to see how that couldn't be considered a positive, and a strong one at that.

If I have one thing to say about the weakness of your judgement is that your criticisms are directed at the people, that is Muslims, as a whole.

Candlemass is quite right I'd say; the basis of your interpretation is "unrepresentative." But so is mine, so is anyone's. I don't think any individual's interpretation possesses enough representation of "Islam" as a whole, that is impossible. Sure, you can offer opinions on various facets of the religion itself and how it operates within a societal framework. You can do that with the end result being something of worth. However, placing an overarching judgement of "Islam is good" or "Islam is bad" is, in my view, meaningless. Simply because what you are referring to is much broader than a singular interpretation can encompass.

Written by R'Vannith on 20.04.2013 at 15:37

You're right I think, forcefully looking for positive aspects won't wash away the negative. But failing to see the possibility of something positive arising, according to various interpretations, from Islamic doctrine only serves as making the negative seem all the more acute.

And I agree with you there, this "true Islam" or "what Islam REALLY says" is a meaningless proposition. Islam doesn't speak for itself. Islam is not an agent. The agency and speech is posited in particular interpretations.

What sunioj said is crucial I think: "these rules are mainly reflective of a culture rather than something set in stone" Where do we draw the line between culture and doctrine? And which is more responsible for the negative aspects we're talking about, is it the doctrine that is to blame, or the culture?

I agree with you that all things should be considered (not only positive/negative ad-hoc).
interesting comments.

Stoning for instance is something you can find in doctrine, yet the culture won't tolerate it; so they stopped.
And then again, it can be found in both culture and doctrine.
I guess I don't, I try to deny there is any useful distinction between them (culture and doctrine).
Maybe there is a problem with doctrine that is too explicit and not open for interpretation.

Written by R'Vannith on 20.04.2013 at 15:45

Written by Rasputin on 19.04.2013 at 19:53

Written by R'Vannith on 18.04.2013 at 07:20

Written by Rasputin on 16.04.2013 at 21:54

The spiritual doctrine itself is for killing infidels, so tell me if that is a peaceful religion. Actually, Christianity is not a peaceful religion either, but they passed their conquering days, that were Catholic Church instructed campaigns of death. Islam never did that, they still remained old school and that is why they are such a threat.

Such an interpretation isn't uncommon, that Islam promotes within its doctrine the eradication of infidel. But I wonder can you conclusively determine whether there is no element of said doctrine which promotes peace, or at least societal behaviours from which peace can develop from, culturally speaking? It seems you have a focus for the negative, as I said, and ignore any possibility of positive aspects.

What positive aspects are you exactly talking about? I'm yet to see one. First of all, I wonder how much interaction have you had with the Islamic population at all? I know that there are Albanians in Australia, so I am just wondering on what exactly are you basing your oppinion on? I on the other hand have had a pretty good picture of who and what the muslims are. You want to see how great Islam is, read the history of Yugoslavia, check out what is going on in Kosovo, and then maybe you will begin to have an incling on what is going on.

Muslims are very good at infiltrating societies and nations. They start easy, few families here, few families there and pretty soon they begin to overpopulate a certain area, then they drop all the fake smiles and begin to expell anyone who is not a muslim.
Kosovo is a perfect example. They were allowed to move in, only few hundreds at first, they breathe like roaches 5-40 children per family, and soon enough begin to spread all the way around. In Kosovo they had all the rights and all the things they needed, however they chose to take what did not belong to them. So they commited ethnic cleansing and now they are spreading their mini empire to the surrounding nations for the purpose of creating Greater Albania.

So yeah. Islam is great.

So far I haven't been "exactly talking" about any positive aspects, merely stating that to deny the possibility of such based upon keen focus on the negative is foolhardy. It seems considerably easier in this day and age to have something negative to say about Islam than something positive.

I'm a uni student, I live in a campus environment which caters for international students. I come into contact with Muslim students on a regular basis. From what I've observed their faith gives them their own identity and a sense of purpose in life. It is a part of their function, how they see the world is ultimately shaped through a faith based lens, granting them their own reason to proceed with their lives in way that they believe is best for them. That, to me, is the ultimate positive. What is more positive than a life of purpose? Your reference to points of negative connotations commonly said of selective geographic and historical contexts is merely conjecture and no where near sufficient to make such a sarcastic and scoffing judgement as "So yeah. Islam is great."

If you divorce Islam from a negative context it becomes easier to see how it forms such a positive framework for people's lives. Perhaps the environment in which I find myself is unique in that regard, but I doubt it and in fact I'm fairly certain that is not the case. So long as that life fulfillment that Islam grants doesn't result in violent and socially destructive behaviours then I fail to see how that couldn't be considered a positive, and a strong one at that.

If I have one thing to say about the weakness of your judgement is that your criticisms are directed at the people, that is Muslims, as a whole.

Candlemass is quite right I'd say; the basis of your interpretation is "unrepresentative." But so is mine, so is anyone's. I don't think any individual's interpretation possesses enough representation of "Islam" as a whole, that is impossible. Sure, you can offer opinions on various facets of the religion itself and how it operates within a societal framework. You can do that with the end result being something of worth. However, placing an overarching judgement of "Islam is good" or "Islam is bad" is, in my view, meaningless. Simply because what you are referring to is much broader than a singular interpretation can encompass.

Easier? I disagree. If you say something negative about the muslims or Islam, you will get liberals in the uproar and then the muslims themselves. Try to make joke about Mohammed or any of their so called prophets, and see where that will get ya. They do not negotiate, they do not reason, they just do what their doctrine tells them to do.

Their own identity and purpose in life is to overrun the entire planet and spread Islam, that has not changed. They became smarter, they do not do it with force at first, but with migration, culture and natality like I said before.
I met them in the school setting as well, and one on one they are not bad, but you get them in a group, especially when they constitute a majority and it is a whole different thing. Ultimate positive for THEM, not for YOU. Like I said, give it anothe 30 years at that, and you will eat your own words, because they will cause another massive Jihad, that is all they are waiting for, now they just setting up the groundwork.

Islam and positive framework??? They live in a prison religion, and they are happy because they do not know any better, and they do not want to know. I do not think that you have a place stand on and comment on Islam, since you are not and were not affected by them like I was and my people. When they start declaring creation of their own country inside of your country, and all your rights are erased and replaced by the backwoods laws, then you can maybe begin to comment on anything pertaining to this issue. Religion that approves of polygamy, no rights for women, no thinking, no reasoning, a religion tha preaches peace and loving and yet killing of the infidel, spreading Islam through any means-there is no inherent positive for anyone outside of that world, and the soon people realize that, the sooner this plague can be stopped, but alas, that is not the case.

Aren't we talking about the muslims who follow Islam? Strip away their Islam from them and we are talking about different people.
Bosnians were great people before they became muslims, now, whole different nation, they lost their core essence.
You're young, you still have a lot to learn about the world, outside of your books and College.

Written by Rasputin on 20.04.2013 at 20:09

Easier? I disagree. If you say something negative about the muslims or Islam, you will get liberals in the uproar and then the muslims themselves. Try to make joke about Mohammed or any of their so called prophets, and see where that will get ya. They do not negotiate, they do not reason, they just do what their doctrine tells them to do.

Their own identity and purpose in life is to overrun the entire planet and spread Islam, that has not changed. They became smarter, they do not do it with force at first, but with migration, culture and natality like I said before.
I met them in the school setting as well, and one on one they are not bad, but you get them in a group, especially when they constitute a majority and it is a whole different thing. Ultimate positive for THEM, not for YOU. Like I said, give it anothe 30 years at that, and you will eat your own words, because they will cause another massive Jihad, that is all they are waiting for, now they just setting up the groundwork.

Islam and positive framework??? They live in a prison religion, and they are happy because they do not know any better, and they do not want to know. I do not think that you have a place stand on and comment on Islam, since you are not and were not affected by them like I was and my people. When they start declaring creation of their own country inside of your country, and all your rights are erased and replaced by the backwoods laws, then you can maybe begin to comment on anything pertaining to this issue. Religion that approves of polygamy, no rights for women, no thinking, no reasoning, a religion tha preaches peace and loving and yet killing of the infidel, spreading Islam through any means-there is no inherent positive for anyone outside of that world, and the soon people realize that, the sooner this plague can be stopped, but alas, that is not the case.

Aren't we talking about the muslims who follow Islam? Strip away their Islam from them and we are talking about different people.
Bosnians were great people before they became muslims, now, whole different nation, they lost their core essence.
You're young, you still have a lot to learn about the world, outside of your books and College.

I don't think there is any hope of me overcoming that wall of prejudice you've constructed around your view. Perhaps such is not your fault and the result of a particularly negative set of circumstances in which every instance of contact with a Muslim has been one which contributed to a prevailing negative picture of their culture and faith.

"Their own identity and purpose in life is to overrun the entire planet and spread Islam, that has not changed" No it isn't. You give your enemy far too much credit, it is impossible that all those who adhere to Islam think in a set pattern as a result of following their doctrine. The doctrine does not inherently determine how they interpret said doctrine. Despite your narrow minded view of all Muslims going about their lives of faith in exactly the same way across all contexts as some sort of collectively organised threat, this is not the case. A Muslim you have come across may well be just as you describe, with nothing to offer the world in their barbaric interpretation of the best way to exhibit one's faithfulness. The Muslims I have come across are not of such a nature.

I cannot have an opinion of Muslims? How supremely arrogant of you.

"When they start declaring creation of their own country inside of your country, and all your rights are erased and replaced by the backwoods laws, then you can maybe begin to comment on anything pertaining to this issue." Suppose, shock and horror, that within Australia they do not do such. I am at a loss then if I want to have something to say about Muslims, since the only way I can have an opinion is if my overall interpretation shifts to a negative one overall. This points out, again, just how determined you are to deny any possibility of positive aspects regarding Islam and its culture, rejecting the opinions of those who may have experienced (as little as I have apparently) something different to you.

I am young, I do have a lot to learn. But to reject the fact that there may be more for you yourself to learn external to your own context and set of circumstances is foolish. You are blinded by hatred. Again, this may be an inevitable result of who you have come into contact with. From my position Muslims are more diverse in their mindsets than your overly simple understanding allows.

Perhaps I'm wrong about all this, so, as this is what I can relate to somewhat, extrapolate on this:
"I met them in the school setting as well, and one on one they are not bad, but you get them in a group, especially when they constitute a majority and it is a whole different thing." When you get them in a group what happened, what did they do, what have you yourself witnessed?

Written by R'Vannith on 21.04.2013 at 07:08

Written by Rasputin on 20.04.2013 at 20:09

Easier? I disagree. If you say something negative about the muslims or Islam, you will get liberals in the uproar and then the muslims themselves. Try to make joke about Mohammed or any of their so called prophets, and see where that will get ya. They do not negotiate, they do not reason, they just do what their doctrine tells them to do.

Their own identity and purpose in life is to overrun the entire planet and spread Islam, that has not changed. They became smarter, they do not do it with force at first, but with migration, culture and natality like I said before.
I met them in the school setting as well, and one on one they are not bad, but you get them in a group, especially when they constitute a majority and it is a whole different thing. Ultimate positive for THEM, not for YOU. Like I said, give it anothe 30 years at that, and you will eat your own words, because they will cause another massive Jihad, that is all they are waiting for, now they just setting up the groundwork.

Islam and positive framework??? They live in a prison religion, and they are happy because they do not know any better, and they do not want to know. I do not think that you have a place stand on and comment on Islam, since you are not and were not affected by them like I was and my people. When they start declaring creation of their own country inside of your country, and all your rights are erased and replaced by the backwoods laws, then you can maybe begin to comment on anything pertaining to this issue. Religion that approves of polygamy, no rights for women, no thinking, no reasoning, a religion tha preaches peace and loving and yet killing of the infidel, spreading Islam through any means-there is no inherent positive for anyone outside of that world, and the soon people realize that, the sooner this plague can be stopped, but alas, that is not the case.

Aren't we talking about the muslims who follow Islam? Strip away their Islam from them and we are talking about different people.
Bosnians were great people before they became muslims, now, whole different nation, they lost their core essence.
You're young, you still have a lot to learn about the world, outside of your books and College.

I don't think there is any hope of me overcoming that wall of prejudice you've constructed around your view. Perhaps such is not your fault and the result of a particularly negative set of circumstances in which every instance of contact with a Muslim has been one which contributed to a prevailing negative picture of their culture and faith.

"Their own identity and purpose in life is to overrun the entire planet and spread Islam, that has not changed" No it isn't. You give your enemy far too much credit, it is impossible that all those who adhere to Islam think in a set pattern as a result of following their doctrine. The doctrine does not inherently determine how they interpret said doctrine. Despite your narrow minded view of all Muslims going about their lives of faith in exactly the same way across all contexts as some sort of collectively organised threat, this is not the case. A Muslim you have come across may well be just as you describe, with nothing to offer the world in their barbaric interpretation of the best way to exhibit one's faithfulness. The Muslims I have come across are not of such a nature.

I cannot have an opinion of Muslims? How supremely arrogant of you.

"When they start declaring creation of their own country inside of your country, and all your rights are erased and replaced by the backwoods laws, then you can maybe begin to comment on anything pertaining to this issue." Suppose, shock and horror, that within Australia they do not do such. I am at a loss then if I want to have something to say about Muslims, since the only way I can have an opinion is if my overall interpretation shifts to a negative one overall. This points out, again, just how determined you are to deny any possibility of positive aspects regarding Islam and its culture, rejecting the opinions of those who may have experienced (as little as I have apparently) something different to you.

I am young, I do have a lot to learn. But to reject the fact that there may be more for you yourself to learn external to your own context and set of circumstances is foolish. You are blinded by hatred. Again, this may be an inevitable result of who you have come into contact with. From my position Muslims are more diverse in their mindsets than your overly simple understanding allows.

Perhaps I'm wrong about all this, so, as this is what I can relate to somewhat, extrapolate on this:
"I met them in the school setting as well, and one on one they are not bad, but you get them in a group, especially when they constitute a majority and it is a whole different thing." When you get them in a group what happened, what did they do, what have you yourself witnessed?

Here is a simple test, if you find so many positive things in Islam, why don't you join it, and experience it first hand, instead of spouting off idealistic visions of something that will never come the pass?

I think you are blind. Islam is infiltrating the world. And while it may be that not all of them are willingly participating within the said plan, as soon as Jihad gets declared, they will not care which branch of Islam they follow, they will converge, unite and attack, just like they did in the past. Ottoman Empire was such a nice experience was it not?

How do you know what nature they are? I cannot know what my friend thinks of me, let alone what he may do tomorrow. The muslims you met do not constitute a majority, they still lack strength in numbers and influence, so they will act accordingly, and that is, pretend that they are nice and polite and that they do not mean any harm, and that they follow Mohammed in peace. That is bunch of bullshit. Like I said, some of them may truly be nice and alright, but overall they are not. Islam is playing this game with the world, pretending to be a peaceful religion, an yet almost everywhere they get a strong enough foothold, terrorism, hatred and persecution seems to spring. Bosnia, Kosovo, Chechnya, Philippines, Somalia, Egypt, Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, many other African countries, now South America. That is how they started in Kosovo, nice, friendly, peaceful and willing to help, until they got the strength in numbers, then like I described in my previous posts.

Oh, you may have an opinion, but your opinion is very shallow and very idealistic. Not until you face this evil and recognize it for what it truly is, will you understand, but it may come sooner then later, even to Australia.
You have not experienced true Islam yet. If you did, you would know, but you do not know.

They may be diverse, but at the right time they will all converge towards the same goal, and ultimately, their religious leaders have more power over them than any Xtian religion combined. If their Imam says, "go and kill infidels" they will do it, without question, because that is what their religion, culture and newfound identity mandates. If they disobey, they will become the infidel, and be held accountable.

How about cutting my friends father with a chainsaw in half, while he was still living and breathing? Raping his mother and sister, in front of him, and then setting them on fire? Running into a school bus with an explosive vest and blowing themselves up? Is that enough for you, or would you like to hear more?

Like I said, you are a tourist who wants to speak like he is a guide. Bottom line is, whatever the positive there may be in Islam, it is annulled by the negative, that keeps increasing as the years go by.

One positive thing that I can say about Islam, is that it is persistent, and that true followers of Islam, have the strongest faith, because they are willing to blow themselves up for it, which a lot of other faiths are not. So there, I can respect that, but I will not like it, endorse it, and believe that this will not result in another massive war, this time, caused by Islam, not Xtianity.

Your talking oversimplified nonsense but even oversimplified nonsense tends still to steam loosely from reality or as a crude reaction to a real problem.

Europeans are have a lack of imagination that's working against them (or maybe an overdose of it giving it's history with romantic ideologies) . Seen as collective past-colonialists, maybe they feel the responsibility to do something for other human beings. But they tend to focus on the universal while ignoring the particular (the Nationalists do the opposite). Also according to Slavoj Zizek, they have a very peculiar take on modern democracy - a political system that is suppose to 'fix' itself. I hope they look at the countries of the people they are welcoming in open hands, to see what culture and habits they are importing.
From the attitudes towards women to the political (anti-democratic) & religious attitudes (that do not fit open liberal societies). These are problems regardless of geography or Islam pre-se. The far right (i.e. "crude reaction", probably at best) are no less of a problem. Both are the same as far as I'm concerned.

Nice thought that opening topic like this , i hope we can be helpful for whom interested , i would read previous posts later but anyone has questions about Islam ? i want to try to answer them