Written by Troy Killjoy on 13.02.2014 at 02:40

Given how different Ulcerate are from brutal death metal bands, I'd support changing something about them. Not sure how I feel about adding prog (yet again) but atmospheric works - especially if we already have bands like Mithras and Septicflesh tagged as "atmospheric death metal".

I think keeping ulcerate in the BDM category makes a lot more sense than putting it in the same sub-subgenre as septicflesh since ulcerate has a lot more in common with BDM bands. I support adding another tag to them and making labeling them as "post brutal death metal". Also, please do not let "atmospheric death metal" become an official genre

But keeping it BDM keeps it in the same category as Devourment.

To me it should be:

2000 - Ongoing Date - Technical Death Metal
2011 - Ongoing Date - Avant-garde Metal

This would align it with Gorguts.

"avant-garde technical death metal" metal looks scruffy.

The whole "post-death" metal thing, as much as we might use it, is hardly a universally accepted term. I suppose I could be added in though as an addition, maybe as a semi-joke having post-death metal in quotations marks.

If Ulcerate aren't THE most avant-garde death metal band currently making music I don't know who is.

Written by Guest on 13.02.2014 at 11:27

2000 - Ongoing Date - Technical Death Metal
2011 - Ongoing Date - Avant-garde Metal

This makes a lot more sense.

Written by Troy Killjoy on 13.02.2014 at 14:23

Written by Guest on 13.02.2014 at 11:27

2000 - Ongoing Date - Technical Death Metal
2011 - Ongoing Date - Avant-garde Metal

This makes a lot more sense.

Looking good, however because Everything Is Fire is equally avant-garde as The Destroyers Of All, I think that the tags should be:
2000 - Ongoing Date - Technical Death Metal
2009 - Ongoing Date - Avant-garde Metal

i.e. they started sounding like Gorguts in 2009.

Written by LeKiwi on 13.02.2014 at 15:11
i.e. they started sounding like Gorguts in 2009.

Good point - fixed.

So what about Pomegranate Tiger?

Written by LeKiwi on 13.02.2014 at 17:04
So what about Pomegranate Tiger?

Not sure what to do about that, someone else more familiar with the band/genre can hopefully chime in. Worst-case I'll look around to see what the majority of reviewers and fans on pages like last.fm and RYM have to say.

Written by Guest on 13.02.2014 at 11:27


If Ulcerate aren't THE most avant-garde death metal band currently making music I don't know who is.

I wonder the same thing. But their avantgarde roots seem to be over-shaded behind their brutality. More people say "how brutal these guys are" instead of "they are so odd for death metal standards".

If Autolatry isn't progressive black metal, I don't know what is. Just listen to "Unrest With The Tide" on their Bandcamp page.

Edit: hell, tracks 4 and 5 are even more progressive...

Amoral update:

1997-2005 Technical death metal
1997-2009 Melodic death metal
2009-2013 Power metal
2009-2013 Hard rock
2014- Progressive metal

(Yeah, the new album is out already. Edit pending approval.)

Written by Risto on 14.02.2014 at 09:56
(Yeah, the new album is out already. Edit pending approval.)

Updated.

On a side note, Aki Siltala definitely took some influence from John Baizley for that cover art.

Any comments about Autolatry?

Written by LeKiwi on 16.02.2014 at 14:41
Any comments about Autolatry?

I changed it from black metal to a combination of progressive/melodic black.

I don't really think that kayo dot are progressive metal.

Written by mz on 16.02.2014 at 21:12
I don't really think that kayo dot are progressive metal.

So then how would you describe them?

Written by Troy Killjoy on 17.02.2014 at 04:48

So then how would you describe them?

Experimental Rock/ Avantgarde Metal sufficiently describes their music. If you want to be more specific,you can also add Jazz tag. This band is too out of the box to be considered progressive metal. Their Coyote album does not even contain metal elements most of the time and I've having hard time accepting avantgarde metal tag for it.

Written by mz on 17.02.2014 at 08:13
Experimental Rock/ Avantgarde Metal

I've never listened to them so I can't argue or agree but I'll look around to see what the general consensus is. Chances are avant-garde will be added based on your description and experimental rock sounds like it could be a good fit as well.

Written by mz on 17.02.2014 at 08:13

Experimental Rock/ Avantgarde Metal sufficiently describes their music. If you want to be more specific,you can also add Jazz tag. This band is too out of the box to be considered progressive metal. Their Coyote album does not even contain metal elements most of the time and I've having hard time accepting avantgarde metal tag for it.

Without the progressive metal tag, there's a large portion of their style that you'd be ignoring, e.g. complex song structures, unusual time signatures, poly-rhythmic instrumentation, etc...avant-garde does not cover those aspects.

Written by LeKiwi on 17.02.2014 at 17:53

Without the progressive metal tag, there's a large portion of their style that you'd be ignoring, e.g. complex song structures, unusual time signatures, poly-rhythmic instrumentation, etc...avant-garde does not cover those aspects.

These characteristics are not restricted to progressive metal. Granted, these are what comes to mind when someone talks about prog metal but you cant say that every band with unusual time signature is a progressive band. A part of their tendency toward experimental rock and avantgarde music lies in the complexity of their sound etc . Kayo Dot is sometime too free of structure to be considered a progressive metal band.
To this day, I haven't come across a band that can be qualified as avantgarde/progressive metal band. We've had avantgarde death, avantgarde black, avantgarde sludge etc but not avantgarde prog. That's because avantgarde metal often covers most of the elements of prog metal. Avantgarde prog metal=avantgarde metal for me.

Written by mz on 17.02.2014 at 19:28
These characteristics are not restricted to progressive metal. Granted, these are what comes to mind when someone talks about prog metal but you cant say that every band with unusual time signature is a progressive band. A part of their tendency toward experimental rock and avantgarde music lies in the complexity of their sound etc . Kayo Dot is sometime too free of structure to be considered a progressive metal band.
To this day, I haven't come across a band that can be qualified as avantgarde/progressive metal band. We've had avantgarde death, avantgarde black, avantgarde sludge etc but not avantgarde prog. That's because avantgarde metal often covers most of the elements of prog metal. Avantgarde prog metal=avantgarde metal for me.

Not quite. Avant-garde music refers to that which is innovative and unusual - occassionally labelled as "ahead of its time". There are far too many elements in avant-garde to label bands such as Leprous or Dissona simply as such. The progressive metal tag highlights the elements at the forefront of these bands.

Here, have a look at this.

Written by LeKiwi on 17.02.2014 at 19:42

Not quite. Avant-garde music refers to that which is innovative and unusual - occassionally labelled as "ahead of its time". There are far too many elements in avant-garde to label bands such as Leprous or Dissona simply as such. The progressive metal tag highlights the elements at the forefront of these bands.

Here, have a look at this.

Like I said, I don't think that every band with unusual time signatures is progressive metal. Deathspell Omega employes some of the most complex structures. I'm not a musician but I think they are also pretty crazy with their time signatures and also that they have highly conceptual albums, yet no one considers them a progressive metal band and we have had a discusion about this on my dissonant metal list once. As for the Kayo Dot, these charatristics you are referring to are the off product of their songwriting. The primarily basis of their music is weird experimentation which sometimes share a little with progressive metal. Based on your argument, we should also call every band with blast beats and growls a death metal band.
Regarding Dissona, I've never heard them properly but in the case of Leprous, I wonder why they are also labeled as avantgarde metal. Too me, they are prog metal and nothing more. Just the fact that leprous' music is not much similar to many other progressive metal bands does not make them avantgarde.
As for progarchives, all I have to say is that they are just one (great) website and nothing more. Basing every argument on their definition is like me saying that MS staff are the always true when it comes to metal, and that's simply false. But then again, I did not see anything that was against my argument in that link and I agree with it.
BTW, this is what progarchives says about Kayo Dot:

Quote:

Kayo Dot is a New York based avant-garde rock and experimental metal group...

.
So, they also consider the band in question an "avant-garde rock and experimental metal group" which is equal to "avantgarde metal, experimental rock"

Written by mz on 17.02.2014 at 20:26

Define progressive metal for me then.

Leprous are avant-garde for that reason alone: no band sounds remotely like them. "Ahead of their time" - hence: avant-garde.

Written by LeKiwi on 17.02.2014 at 21:52

Define progressive metal for me then.

Leprous are avant-garde for that reason alone: no band sounds remotely like them. "Ahead of their time" - hence: avant-garde.

My definition of prog metal would not be much different from what you can find on wikipedia,progarchives and last.fm. The difference in my definition of prog metal and yours is that the presence of slightest amount of some elements typically associated with prog metal is enough for you to call a band such. You've already said that scar symmetry are progressive and this shows where you are coming from. I can accept if you say that kayo dot are proggier than AC/DS and kiss, but calling KD a progressive metal band is an over-classification.
Regarding Leprous, you are wrong in my opinion. First of all, all of band mentioned in similar bands section are similar enough ( I haven't heard Throne Of Chaos, so, exclude them). Moreover, this unique=avantgarde argument is not true. Godflesh are/were pretty unique, but they are not called avantgarde metal. Same with opeth, katatonia, tool and so many other bands. Also, note that there are some avantgarde bands that sound similar to each other. For instance, we have a wave of groups similar to deathspell omega and they are known as avantgarde black metal. Same can be said about gorgutes and other bands taking huge influences from them.

Written by mz on 17.02.2014 at 22:54
My definition of prog metal would not be much different from what you can find on wikipedia,progarchives and last.fm. The difference in my definition of prog metal and yours is that the presence of slightest amount of some elements typically associated with prog metal is enough for you to call a band such. You've already said that scar symmetry are progressive and this shows where you are coming from. I can accept if you say that kayo dot are proggier than AC/DS and kiss, but calling KD a progressive metal band is an over-classification.
Regarding Leprous, you are wrong in my opinion. First of all, all of band mentioned in similar bands section are similar enough ( I haven't heard Throne Of Chaos, so, exclude them). Moreover, this unique=avantgarde argument is not true. Godflesh are/were pretty unique, but they are not called avantgarde metal. Same with opeth, katatonia, tool and so many other bands. Also, note that there are some avantgarde bands that sound similar to each other. For instance, we have a wave of groups similar to deathspell omega and they are known as avantgarde black metal. Same can be said about gorgutes and other bands taking huge influences from them.

I don't really consider progressive metal a sub-genre, I consider an informative tag - an add-on so to speak. So yes, me threshold for labeling a band as progressive is much lower. I think the problem here is that people think that progressive is a "sound", which it's not. It's simply a style of playing that can take form in any genre.

Leprous being one of my top three favourite bands, I can say with certainty that none of the bands in the "similar bands" section sound remotely like them barring one element or two.

First of all, read this. Unique is pretty much a synonym for avant-garde.

Edit: avant-garde is anything that deviates from the norm. When it becomes the norm, the music is no longer avant-garde. As such, the label doens't work well retrospectively. If Godflesh were in truth unique, then yes, their style was avant-garde.

Written by LeKiwi on 17.02.2014 at 23:02


I don't really consider progressive metal a sub-genre, I consider an informative tag - an add-on so to speak. So yes, me threshold for labeling a band as progressive is much lower. I think the problem here is that people think that progressive is a "sound", which it's not. It's simply a style of playing that can take form in any genre.

Pretty sure that the vast majority of progressive metal fans do not agree with you on this. Progressive metal is a genre and music should have especial and solid qualities to be considered progressive metal. You are basically reducing this genre to a mood of playing and in this regard, prog metal becomes a vague term like "epic metal" , "dark metal" etc. You're definition of prog metal might be more objective than those before mentioned terms, but it's still pretty unrestricted. As you admitted, you easily throw progressive tag and while I can see that some bands you referring to as such have some progressive qualities, I think calling them as such is an extreme act. The fact that progressive metal blends easily with many other genres does not make its definition any less exclusive and restricted. I appreciate you having different opinion on this subject but do not expect this site to behave based on your prospect, which most pf people do not agree.

Written by LeKiwi on 17.02.2014 at 23:02


Leprous being one of my top three favourite bands, I can say with certainty that none of the bands in the "similar bands" section sound remotely like them barring one element or two.

Leprous are also one of my favorite bands, but I don't find them that unique. Sure, they brought some fresh air into the scene but not enough to be labeled as avantgarde metal. There are bands uniquer than leprous which are being described by other, more regular musical tags.

Written by LeKiwi on 17.02.2014 at 23:02

First of all, read this. Unique is pretty much a synonym for avant-garde.

Edit: avant-garde is anything that deviates from the norm. When it becomes the norm, the music is no longer avant-garde. As such, the label doens't work well retrospectively. If Godflesh were in truth unique, then yes, their style was avant-garde.

Nothing new in that article for me. The problem is that we are talking about avantgarde metal and a short article on "avantgardis in general" does not offer enough for our case. Avantgarde should be the last tag we use for describing music and it would lost it's value and meaning if we use if to describe every relatively unique band. If you think that "unique=avantgarde", then you should consider every pioneering band in every metal genre and sub-genre an avantgarde band, and that also applies to Black Sabbath, metallica, death etc. We call them a pioneering band and not more.
Saying that "When it (=avantgarde music) becomes the norm, the music is no longer avant-garde" is not true always. As I said, dissonant technical death metal has become a trend recently and bands in this trend are called avantgarde death metal. Furthermore, aging also does not have effect here in all cases. Frank Zappa produced avantgarde rock 50 + years ago, and his works are considered some of the most daring efforts of genre even today. I clearly was not around when pioneering bands of different metal subgenres made their earliest record and older people should clear this case up: were they called avantgarde metal or not back in day. All I can say is that in my experience, Alcest is considered as the first blackgaze metal band and we don't consider them avantgarde.

Wow you guys really care about this - a lot more than I do for sure. All I can say is that we shouldn't get too carried away with the avant-garde thing - just because a band is unique or original does not make it avant-garde.

Written by mz on 18.02.2014 at 09:05

I appreciate you having different opinion on this subject but do not expect this site to behave base on your prospect, which most pf people do not agree.

That's not going to stop him ramming those highly personal perspectives down our throat every 5 minutes when he finds a band he likes that contains an instrument other than guitar and drums or a passage not in 4/4

Written by mz on 18.02.2014 at 09:05

That's exactly what prog is in my eyes, it's simply a style. To tag a band as progressive metal is very vague, it should be accompanied by other genre tags. As such, I think it only can further clarify what is being played, i.e. that the band's style is more sophisticated. Likewise, the term avant-garde metal is considerably uninformative on it's own. Alcest aren't labelled as avant-garde because their genre has a name. Even before such a tag existed, their style wasn't nearly innovative enough to be considered avant-garde, simply for the fact that a combination of other genres could easily describe their sound.

I'm too tired for detailed discussion tonight. All in all, I have this suggestions:
Kayo Dot: we should have progressive metal tag removed.
Leprous: We should have avantgarde metal tag removed.
@ LeKiwi: If you think that leprous are avantgarde, please say what musical boundaries they break and what type of weird experimentation is done by them
instead of saying that they are unique and you have not heard anything quiet like them . They are not radial enough to be considered an avantgarde act.

Ancient Ascendant - I'm not even going to bother recommending a genre. Just listen to the third track - "Driven By The Dark" - over here and hear that it's clearly not straight up death metal.