@ Linak Well, for at least ten years now my mum has solved cases where women have been kicked out of work due to a pregnancy. That hasn't dissapeared. In many cases the employer has been fined for what he did, but the fines are not high enough to stop them doing that. They just don't want to pay the expenses of the materity leave and it costs less for them to pay the fines.

No baby can do without mother's milk. Substitutes are meant to be used when the mother has not enough milk to feed the baby, but the baby still needs at least some mother's milk every day for the first months. That's why it's illegal to advertise substitutes as some mothers could think they can stop breast feeding and only use the substitute. You may remember the Nestle case...

I've seen the statistics about the differences in men's and women's wages. They make me wanna cry. The smallest difference is probably 200 euros, but the differences can go up to 2000 euros. I'm talking about the Finnish situation, but I'm pretty sure the phenomenon is worldwide. Sure the UN president makes money. I wasn't talking about women being poorly paid for good jobs, but there's a chance that if the UN president was a man, he got a lot more money than the current one...

In my opinion this whole situation here is contradictory. Men are whining about women's rights and the right's that women want to have in the name of equality. They dislike feminists because feminists whine. So what are they doing themselves then? If they think it's so pitiful to fight for one's rights, why does this thread even exist?

I really wouldn't mind if the army was compulsory for both men and women. First, I know I wouldn't pass the entrance checking and second, in the army they teach people many important skills. For instance in Finland it's vital to know how to survive in woods as the whole country is basically forest. But I'm repeating, there are no resources and I haven't heard any army professional say he'd want the army compulsory for women...

I agree, feminists see this issue in a very narrow way, but so do men. But the most disadvantages Blackgir mentioned just can't be owned by women. As much as we'd naturally like to have testosterone running in our veins and hear our voice changing, we sadly can't have those biological disadvantages as women and men are different...

In general men and women have the same rights, but do they always apply? What's on paper doesn't necessarily mean it happens in real life. A lot has gone to a better way during the decades, but a few things could still be changed.

Here we see that women think in a different way too. My situation is rather good at the moment and I'm pleased with the way things are in the Western countries as soon as the wages are equal. But women in developing countries are treated like crap and I care about their rights too.

Yeah, you are right.
Just take the Muslim world, where women considered nothing. They have no rights to vote for thier country. It is amazing that nowadays there are still country that don't let women to vote .

@Ernotar

Well my mom works for women as well, and in cases such as pregnant women, the law protects them twice as much, because they're actually protecting two persons now, I still find it hard to believe that in a country such as Finland this is still going on, but in any case, you should specify anyway, because that kind of treatment towards women is pretty damn punished almost everywhere else.

My mother was very sick when I was born, she couldn't breast feed me or my sister for that matter, when she was born 2 years after, we got fed with the formula thingie, and it was fine, I think you might be confusing the love and affection that a mother can give her child with the nutrients on the milk, because they are also damn well included in the formula, but of course, it is a thousand times better if the baby is given milk.

I'm not sure that phenomenon is worldwide at all. For any job the wages are already established in the payroll, it is all described down to detail in the terms of the contract, if women accept less than what they know they should, or what they see in the rest of the payroll (for in most cases, when someone applies for a job, they are informed of the general wages there), then it's their own fault for not making a huge issue about it, they can just apply for a job somewhere else, there's really no excuse for that.

Ehem.. that I know of, men aren't whining about women's rights, women are complaining about them themselves, I think you might have mistaken the point of the thread, which is to ask for opinions on feminism, not to defend women's rights per se.

Oh well I would mind honestly, there are things that should be done for men and thigns that should be especially made for women, but that doesn't mean that a woman couldn't join the army if she wanted to, she'd just have to deal with a loooot of men in abstinence and that wouldn't be good I guess, for example, you see A LOT of men working in beauty parlors and stuff, even if that is 'seen' as a job for women.

Yes, men and women are biologically different or something right? You can't expect them to be able to have the same results in some kind of physical test, or say.. ahh well any case for that matter, the fact that we have the same rights doesn't exactly mean we're the same, because wer'e not, at all.. I also sort of dont agree with 'men having it more difficult in puberty' because pffff hell... honestly... waking up at 11 and finding out you are bleeding is just.. traumatic for a lot of girls, oh well that's a different subject..

Well then youi're takling about rednecks and machos, legally (which is what is supposed to matter to women) we have the same rights, if they let themselves be walked over then who's to blame?

My country is in 'development' right? I don't see women complaining about their wages, actually it's me that complain about theirs haha. But hear me out, do you have a job? are you mistreated or underpaid because you are a woman? you are fighting a cause that should be fought by those women themselves

Ok, I'm tired of repeating the same thing message after message after message... So, in case someone really cares about my opinion, which I seriously doubt, let me know. Otherwise,

We all have our own needs, there's no need to demand more than another, as some females (reference to feminists) do.

I think it is a minority of men that cause women to consciously enact upon gaining certain liberties, rights, or wahetver... and then become feminists.

Fortunately, I havn't seen too many feminists in my life so far:lol:.

Peace Out.

No Feminism at all, women should stay in kitchen and do housewife like in the feudalism tradition of Asian ( I hate all related to tradition but except of that thing). Women born to be fkd/rpd. Yeah I think they should be so. l.o.l

@ Jet_viking I don't feel like starting this conversation again, but I hope that was a really bad joke and you were just being sarcastic...

@ernotar: do you agree with "the scum manifest"? i believe it was called something like that
for those of you who didn't know it's a book on how every single bad thing in the world is because of men and how they all need to be exterminated...BULLSHIT if you ask me

@ cursed Bullshit if you ask me, too. There are many things that feminists see as men's fault, but actually they should blame society. Of course society is often lead by men, but things suck in Finland even though we have a female president etc. I'm not one of those lunatics who hate all men just because they're men, I just want women to have certain rights all over the world.

...hmm...i don't agree with feminism because i think its an exageration...i support women's rights as much as i support everybody else's rights...i think all things at a extreme point becomes bad...even if we wanted women and men can't be treated equally, i'm not saying that someone is less but we can't be treated equal simply because we r not the same, we r totally different...this doesn't mean one should abuse from another, its completely the opposite...we should complement each other...

@Ernotar, it was half of joke, but half of serious.

Anyhow I dont concur of feminism at all. They do men work not well as men do. Their thoughts are different, and yeah they are really good in the kitchen and on bed. Though I still support that women must gain the rights, they can vote for the excutive elections, etc something like that. As for their position, a example, a fault of Rice, foreign minister of U.S.A conducted to creat 9/11 disaster, and many example for women ruling, they alwayz create disorder

@ Jet_viking The whole idea of men's or women's jobs is very old-fashioned. Of course we come from different cultures, but here men can cook, do the laundry, take care of the children etc and it's not weird. I disagree with you, women in leading positions don't create disorder! One badly argued example doesn't prove anything... That kind of thinking is very narrow-minded, insulting and chauvinist. I don't mean to offend you anyhow, it's just how I think about that kind of thoughts in general, but you have the freedom of opinion of course.

@Jet Viking: The what about Mr.Bush himself? Or perhaps Hitler or Stalin? We don't blame men for creating dictatorships, instead we actually blame the person(s) behind it. If you think Condoleezza Rice did a bad job, then blame her for creating disorder instead of the women. If you wan't some example of women with political power that have done a great job, then look at Mrs. Tarja Halonen, president of Finland. She has ruled Finland for six years now, and was recently re-elected. Finland is among the top-ranking countries in the world when it comes to well-fare and social security. And she is a strong speaker for gays rights.
For an example in my country we had Anna Lind, ex-minister for foreign affairs who activly tried to increase the cooperation with EU.
So please don't blame an entire group(this is implies to both men and women), blame the individual instead!

Written by Ernotar on 10.11.2006 at 18:12

@ Jet_viking The whole idea of men's or women's jobs is very old-fashioned. Of course we come from different cultures, but here men can cook, do the laundry, take care of the children etc and it's not weird. I disagree with you, women in leading positions don't create disorder! One badly argued example doesn't prove anything... That kind of thinking is very narrow-minded, insulting and chauvinist. I don't mean to offend you anyhow, it's just how I think about that kind of thoughts in general, but you have the freedom of opinion of course.

Well the thing that men can cook, doing the laundry, taking care of the children, its not weird, I agree same thing to men in my place. But, deeper vision for feminism, who take care the children better than who? who cook meals for their family best? Only women can solve that. God made men and women different, women are weaker, they cant do heavy work, their vocation that god give them is "mother", they take care for children, cooking meal for family, cant protect themseves, and be protected by their men or husband, => that's woman in "traditional feudalist definition" was or still is in myplace. Can you think that a woman who is president can be pregnant in the time of governing? No, she cant give a milk-suck to her kidz while she is an excutive personel or an president of state. And if women want to do serious job that heighten their position in society they must give up their vocation: no kids, no family or at least they dont have any busy from their family=> then they no longer are women in "definition" at all. Many example: Whitsey Oppraph, devote whole life for society and she intends not having family, Condolenezence Rice as same. And moreover the evidence that make sure women do job not well as men: most chefs in big hotels near my place all are men, Im sure that women very fit to be teacher but most good or exactly indeed best teachers are men. And women are women, they work like their manner make so everything be funny or awkward: like female policticians in Canada, they show their sexy photo to appeal elector, or I read some news like the actress Angelina Jolie can run for election to become state president, I wonder that can a women played in sex movie can be a president, or Arroyo, the president of Philippines, Magaret Thatcher a British polictician be involved in some scandal of eavesdropping and either Arroyo involved in a scandal of "fun" with a female assistant. In a TV show of a programe in my place, a girl was asked and she answered that she didnt want to be under a woman chief, she wanted to be under a chief man becuase she didnt like the manner of working of women, she answered so. Anyways what I debate is women cant work well as men therefore over the world trust women less than men, and what I debate of course is not that I dont agree that women should not have their rights. Science also proved that women cant do as good as men.

Of course we each other has own opinion but we agree on that women should have their rights as common What I debate is more sensitive

Written by Torelli on 10.11.2006 at 23:27

@Jet Viking: The what about Mr.Bush himself? Or perhaps Hitler or Stalin? We don't blame men for creating dictatorships, instead we actually blame the person(s) behind it. If you think Condoleezza Rice did a bad job, then blame her for creating disorder instead of the women. If you wan't some example of women with political power that have done a great job, then look at Mrs. Tarja Halonen, president of Finland. She has ruled Finland for six years now, and was recently re-elected. Finland is among the top-ranking countries in the world when it comes to well-fare and social security. And she is a strong speaker for gays rights.
For an example in my country we had Anna Lind, ex-minister for foreign affairs who activly tried to increase the cooperation with EU.
So please don't blame an entire group(this is implies to both men and women), blame the individual instead!

Well the system of well-fare of Finnish in particular and in Scandinavy in general as well it was formed for many years, not since Tara become president. I mean that achievement of well fare is created by the whole system before. As for Rice's fault, that's because of her women thought in doing her job. You can see many example that I list in above.

Written by Torelli on 10.11.2006 at 23:27

she is a strong speaker for gays rights

hahaha, no any comment

Anyway, the countries that are strong of feminist or some women governing inside, I have not heard any informantion of them. I mean those country are not high in position world, like Scandinavi, very peaceful, I heard only 1 news of Finland that ex-president organized negotiation for East Timor, besides it not any info except of those are metal countries. Same thing for Canada, peaceful country, not " hot", and same for Australia where feminist rise are very popular so far as a parliamentarian expressed negative about feminism. Though maybe because of media so I didnt hear much about those country.

^woah, now that's a huge post
@ernotar as i can see you are a moderate feminist, not one of those feminazis and i wanted to hear someone who actually wants to discuss(preferably a moderate feminist), not shove their point of view down everyone's throat saying this is right and that is wrong
and the way i see it, it;s true that women have less rights than men, mainly because of the religious backgrounds, ultra-conservatorism etc. but i can't do anything about it, i am sorry it is this way, but that's reality, and i really hate the muslim world for reducing the woman to such a low level
but some feminists really have to get down to earth and when they apply to a flyer-distributor(i know how hard the job is) for example and they get rejected, they immediately think "you're rejecting me because i am a woman!!!" sure, some women can do the job, but 90% can't even lift that fucking 20-30 kg bag off of the ground,let alone carry it through dozens of streets back and forth
ps: i think this thread should be moved to the serious discussions now

@ Jet_viking The best cooks in the world are all men... And I wouldn't use "God created" as an argument, as no one can prove me there's a God. But that hasn't necessarily got anything to do with this thread.

Female politicians aren't the only ones able to create scandals. You might remember for instance Bill Clinton or some American politicians who were fired because of sexual harrashment etc...

At least in Finland the president is hardly in such age that she's likely to have children.Tarja Halonen is 60, so I don't think you have to worry about her getting pregnant... My mum is a boss in one organization and she also has a family. Three children and a happy marriage. It's only a matter of putting things in the right order. A woman can both be in a high position and have a family.

It's true that female chiefs can be real assholes and many people would rather have a male chief. But it's not a rule. You can't say all women are incapable of being chiefs.

@ cursed Finally a man who doesn't read my post and think "you're a feminist, I hate you!" I agree, there's very little to be done in the muslim countries. From our point of view the way they treat women is wrong, but obviously they see nothing wrong about it.

the reason all high posts are taken by men is because of the culture. as cursed says, its mostly religion's fault. sweden is said to be a "christian" country, although i would rather call it an atheist country. so now we cant blame religion anymore. women are considered "less worth" just because of prejudices from the society in general. its the same with immigrants for example. prejudices makes people think that they are less competent in doing a certain job. but i wouldnt say that there is a biological difference between men and women concerning for example a presidential post. its all prejudices, and they all have to be exterminated.

muslim countries are the way they are because religion has too much influence in politics. religion and politics has nothing to do with each other at all. here in the western world, we put less weight in religious conditions, and therefore women are treated better here.

@Ernotar: i dont hate you because you're a feminist, i hate feminism in general. you seem to have the same opinions as i do, so i would rather call you an equalist, or, to use my own made up word, a feminimasculinist

@ernotar:well, basically, you are not a woman, and i am not a man so we're not actually defending the people of our gender here

@ Achor I guess countries like Finland and Sweden are thought to be modern and they're in some cases. But when it comes to the values, we're still in stone age. Or maybe not, as women were actually valued in the stone age. I think feminists have done a great job improving the image of women, but now our rights are almost equal, so some feminists are taking their ideology a bit too far. Maybe I'm a feminimasculinist then...

I believe that we men are afraid of feminism, and that is the reason why it is not the same rights for women and men today. Most of us (at least here in Sweden) doesn't look down on women, we are afraid that one day the women will look down on us. We men are afraid of their evolvement (is that a word?) and feel that we need to have better salarys and stuff like that, we need the advantage. Me myself is positive against the feminism as long as they do not disrespect us, I hate when I have a conversation like this and in the end they just scream how bad and stupid we men are for the world.

Im curious, Ive read a few news articles of feminists attacking celebs like Britney Spears, Paris Hilton etc. because supposedly they are destroying the image of women as quote "prostitutes". Feedback from those of the opposite sex would be vastly appreciated.

im not of the opposite sex but... what a bitch fight lol feminist anachists VS pop queens hehe

Written by Guest on 13.12.2006 at 01:29

im not of the opposite sex but... what a bitch fight lol feminist anachists VS pop queens hehe

Did you hear about that?? I dont think that those pop queens are good examples of what women should be...( that sounded very right wing of me ), but I think there would be people that agree with me.

nope havent heard about it, but could imange in quite well... and i also understand the feminist

i agree.. all these pop queens give a wrong impression on how women should look like and behave...

I'm a chick and even i'm sick off feminist blaming everything on men. I mean damn men are great! Stop holding every damn guy responsible just because your ex hit you. ( If that offends anyone i'm sorry.)

I understand some part of feminism, because some men totally are idiots. But guess what, it's only because they're afraid that their wife / girlfriend / sister / and so on would come superior, and be better than them. This shows that they are weaks and unsecure about theirselves. I myself am sometimes actually afraid of female drummers, which I know is stupid.. But seriously girls, not all men are pigs

Written by Torelli on 10.11.2006 at 23:27


For an example in my country we had Anna Lind, ex-minister for foreign affairs who activly tried to increase the cooperation with EU.

Iam sorry I read this now and not before and I just want to say that I am really sorry about mrs. Anna Lind especially because for her death was responsible demented/retard Serb, and just to say we don't want him here, and he is among many idiots who is direct responsible for my country bad reputation.

About feminist thing, I respect women as much as men, but I honestly think hard core feminist clubs are retarded, men will also lose job if he hurt hand if he is employed at some slow minded jurk, and like some hguy already said I can't believe in that in Finland this things are often, I don't know any similar case in my country, and that thing some guy said about fucking and raping is dissapointing, I would like to give you to live 10 days in some place without weemen, just to fuck one and to say not a word and I would like to hear your opinion then.
P.S. Some of best cookers are men so men can do cooking

Why is this in the 'Serious Discussions' forum? Oh sorry, yes I know, bad joke.

Well, some posts of this thread are very interesting. I agree with some of you, and I disagree with some of you.

My personal opinion is that men and women are different. Therefore, they should be treated different. Now, hold your fire, I am not saying that women are less then men, only different. When talking about social rights suchs as voting, I am glad they are for both sexes available.

However, as I said, I do think that there are differences between the sexes. For example, I once read somewhere that women often have trouble with parking the car in a small parkingspace. I first thought that it was a bad joke, but then the article explained it was due to the fact that women are not so good with 'spaces'. Their skill 'estimating the space' is not as good as men's skill. I thought to myself, so, if this would be true (which I think it could be true), then that would mean we are different from each other. Unfortunatly I don't have examples where women are 'better' (a word I don't like to use in this thread, but I have no others in my vocabulary) then men, but I don't doubt there are.

Conclusion: Men and women are different, and we should use that difference. Using the benefits of these differents is nothing like racism, in my opinion.

(I am also not saying that all women should be placed in the kitchen or something like that, I highly disagree with that. Even if science would prove that women are better cooks then men, I still believe in the right to choose, equal for both sexes.)

@Nervel: so what would utopia look like according to you? how can we better use the differences for our benefit?

To have an opinion on that, I should be better informed on the exact differences, some information which I lack. And in topics like this I don't like to speculate. So I'm sorry, but I don't have an answer for that.