Oh man ! I can't really keep me from saying that I've been on MS for almost 2 years, and all I can say that Joe had never ever had even a bit of any disrespecting or mocking intentions, although I am not a native speaker of English but I really can't get any intentions of mocking in his previous sentences on this list. Interestingly Joe is one of cool members who always bring lots of amazing stuffs which are not featured on MS... ah well I'm not trying to be partial and fuel any kind of new discussion.

Written by angel. on 13.10.2013 at 15:21

Oh man ! I can't really keep me from saying that I've been on MS for almost 2 years, and all I can say that Joe had never ever had even a bit of any disrespecting or mocking intentions, although I am not a native speaker of English but I really can't get any intentions of mocking in his previous sentences on this list. Interestingly Joe is one of cool members who always bring lots of amazing stuffs which are not featured on MS... ah well I'm not trying to be partial and fuel any kind of new discussion.

I would be the first to admit I'm sarcastic and occasionally cutting but I'm not a troll. I don't mock people for the sake of it (at least not specific individuals. I may mock certain thought processes in groups). My sarcasm and tone on this thread were born out of LeKiwi's a) arrogant belief in his own opinions, b) condescending tone toward non-vocalists and their beliefs, c) attitude toward people that dare show any personality in their posts resulting in LeKiwi trying to "deter" them from it by taking everything they say literally, and d) self-assurance of the brilliance of his own list (which in my opinion is misplaced and I believe my initial point about including popular artists stands).

Written by angel. on 13.10.2013 at 15:21

Oh man ! I can't really keep me from saying that I've been on MS for almost 2 years, and all I can say that Joe had never ever had even a bit of any disrespecting or mocking intentions, although I am not a native speaker of English but I really can't get any intentions of mocking in his previous sentences on this list. Interestingly Joe is one of cool members who always bring lots of amazing stuffs which are not featured on MS... ah well I'm not trying to be partial and fuel any kind of new discussion.

Perhaps not to anyone else; I haven't bothered perusing through every single comment of his I know when I'm being mocked, and having lived in Britain for a while I've come to know such humour It's clear that he simply dislikes me, and that doesn't bother me. However using snide remarks to prove a point isn't really appropriate, mature discussions don't work like that.

Written by Guest on 13.10.2013 at 15:40

I would be the first to admit I'm sarcastic and occasionally cutting but I'm not a troll. I don't mock people for the sake of it (at least not specific individuals. I may mock certain thought processes in groups). My sarcasm and tone on this thread were born out of LeKiwi's a) arrogant belief in his own opinions, b) condescending tone toward non-vocalists and their beliefs, c) attitude toward people that dare show any personality in their posts resulting in LeKiwi trying to "deter" them from it by taking everything they say literally, and d) self-assurance of the brilliance of his own list (which in my opinion is misplaced and I believe my initial point about including popular artists stands).

Even if what you claim held true (which is doesn't), replying in a mocking manner isn't an appropriate or mature response. I can be swayed and I don't deny being proven wrong when I am; everyone has been at some point However, you or anyone has yet to convince me of anything concrete on the subject of talent, so thus my opinions stand. I have no issue admitting I'm wrong, I do that nearly every day in my life. You're simply offended that you've met your match.

You've yet to address the fact that other lists with a greater number of popular artists have received less of these ----> Empty claims....

Written by LeKiwi on 13.10.2013 at 15:57

Even if what you claim held true (which is doesn't), replying in a mocking manner isn't an appropriate or mature response. I can be swayed and I don't deny being proven wrong when I am; everyone has been at some point However, you or anyone has yet to convince me of anything concrete on the subject of talent, so thus my opinions stand. I have no issue admitting I'm wrong, I do that nearly every day in my life. You're simply offended that you've met your match.

I think it's clear which one of us is offended. You've brought out the victim card at every opportunity If "met my match" is someone that is his own witness to apparently objective facts then I guess I have. You are beyond argument. I freely admit that and have done earlier in this thread. If you think that's something worth taking pride in then by all means go ahead.

Quote:
You've yet to address the fact that other lists with a greater number of popular artists have received less of these ----> Empty claims....

The answer to this is glaringly obvious: the majority of these lists are not advertised anywhere other than people's profiles and at the bottom of the album pages beneath the dozens of other more popular lists with more thumbs up. It's, perhaps ironically, the attention I've given you in numerous comments and consequent replies that have given this list front page status and maintained almost constantly on the forum front page as the most recently commented on list. That's why the comments more than doubled in the two or three days we spoke here. This + the popular oriented band make up of this list is why you have gained so many thumbs up. You don't even have descriptions. It's simply a number of well-known bands loosely tied together with a vague concept. Sorry if you don't realise this.

Anyway, I've been PMd by LeKiwi telling me to admit defeat because of my "bruised ego". If that's not a sign of a frustrated opponent I don't know what is that being said I think it really is time for me to leave LeKiwi alone. There's only so many times a person can declare his victory / my defeat without it becoming an embarrassing spectacle. I won't respond to any other replies on here, lest LeKiwi play the victim card further.

Wait, sarcasm is way different from mockery, but Lekiwi, you already made me to get surprisingly annoyed for the way you respond, however, this is your list and as you wish you can sort it but if you go back to the previous comments , you will know that actually I was one of the first ones who was pissed by your arrogant tone, and I just broke it up there, but maybe the way you get responses is related to the way you at first started to reply back.Anyhow, I don't think that anyone want to dislike you, I mean what kind of reason that could have, it's just the way yourself started to respond otherwise I don't think that anyone wants to have any feeling against you.

Written by Guest on 13.10.2013 at 16:08

I think it's clear which one of us is offended. You've brought out the victim card at every opportunity If "met my match" is someone that is his own witness to apparently objective facts then I guess I have. You are beyond argument. I freely admit that and have done earlier in this thread. If you think that's something worth taking pride in then by all means go ahead.

I've not been offended, in a very long time, you needn't worry about that. Your debating skills are lacking; your constant use of logical fallacies shows that you lack the reasoning to contradict my arguments. I never claimed that my opinions were facts, rather that they are objective. I may be stubborn, but shown opinions backed by facts, I can do naught but accept my error; that has yet to happen. It is you, who is beyond argument

Quote:

The answer to this is glaringly obvious: the majority of these lists are not advertised anywhere other than people's profiles and at the bottom of the album pages beneath the dozens of other more popular lists with more thumbs up. It's, perhaps ironically, the attention I've given you in numerous comments and consequent replies that have given this list front page status and maintained almost constantly on the forum front page as the most recently commented on list. That's why the comments more than doubled in the two or three days we spoke here. This + the popular oriented band make up of this list is why you have gained so many thumbs up. You don't even have descriptions. It's simply a number of well-known bands loosely tied together with a vague concept. Sorry if you don't realise this.

You're claiming that a large portion of the members who gave this list a +1 use the forum. Personally, I've never ventured into that niche of the website. Extending your opinions to those held by the entire user-base (as you have done before) is another logical fallacy. Arguably, it could be a contributing factor, but your claim of its popularity is unsound; over half the bands here could hardly be considered popular

Quote:

Anyway, I've been PMd by LeKiwi telling me to admit defeat because of my "bruised ego". If that's not a sign of a frustrated opponent I don't know what is that being said I think it really is time for me to leave LeKiwi alone. There's only so many times a person can declare his victory / my defeat without it becoming an embarrassing spectacle. I won't respond to any other replies on here, lest LeKiwi play the victim card further.

The fact that you had to announce that over here indicates a desperate attempt at preserving your public persona; seeking public support is rather unscrupulous. As stated before, I've yet to be affected by your comments in any negative manner since I happen to be able to debate in a mature and unemotional manner. Look up some debates on the internet to see how they're meant to be carried out. It appears you've taken the easy way out of discussion; shifting the blame to divert the attention the fact that you're unable to hold a proper discussion. Debates are meant to be a series of counterarguments following a single argument. Having discussed thoroughly with you, I've noticed your approach was leave the counterarguments I've presented unaddressed and focus on a new argument. You've essentially been too stubborn to admit you were wrong every time I've presented a plausible argument.

Written by angel. on 13.10.2013 at 16:43

Wait, sarcasm is way different from mockery, but Lekiwi, you already made me to get surprisingly annoyed for the way you respond, however, this is your list and as you wish you can sort it but if you go back to the previous comments , you will know that actually I was one of the first ones who was pissed by your arrogant tone, and I just broke it up there, but maybe the way you get responses is related to the way you at first started to reply back.Anyhow, I don't think that anyone want to dislike you, I mean what kind of reason that could have, it's just the way yourself started to respond otherwise I don't think that anyone wants to have any feeling against you.

The premise of sarcasm is mockery. Arrogance requires a degree of ignorance to be carried out, however as I stated before, I can be convinced - it simply takes solid reasoning to do so. If someone begins an argument, I take the matter seriously in that I discard emotions and simply reply with a counterargument. I state my opinions without sugar coating them. I speak as concisely as I can as I'm constantly endeavoring to improve my vocabulary and perhaps some users are offended by such a direct approach, and that is unfortunate.

Written by Erik M. on 12.10.2013 at 01:53

Wow, just wow... I just read the whole discussion (finally got to it) and I'm totally baffled. I have to say I totally agree with everything Joe said. I'm well aware that this discussion has ended quite some time ago, so I'm not looking for another discussion seeing as Joe pretty much said everything that could be said on this matter. For the record, he didn't really insult you by saying that you're arrogant. While you might have more insight and knowledge on whether a vocalist is talented or not, it is in fact arrogant to claim that a non-vocalist could never have such insight and knowledge. Hell, even if a vocalist like Fritillaria says you're wrong you refuted her opinion. Both of you are vocalists, that's a fact. Since she doesn't agree it means you can't be entirely objective. So it remains at least partially subjective and one can never be unbiased because you immediately compare a certain vocalist to other (similar) vocalists that you've previously heard, whether it's unconscious or not (in your case it's highly probable that it's unconscious though). I could go on with repeating stuff that's already been said, but I doubt it's of any use, so I'll just stop right now.

Just wanted to get that off my chest after reading that long discussion.

I never said that non-vocalists couldn't have the insight that some vocalists have on the subject, I simply said that if you do not possess such insight, the result of making a list like this would likely be inaccurate. You could also use induction to determine which vocalists are talented; the insight simply helps confirm such theories. I would be open to discuss with Frit if she argued that one vocal style wasn't difficult to perform, and I'm sure we could come to a resolution. The basis of this list is comparison, that I agree with. However, everything in existence is relative, yet objectivity remains in many subjects. Simply because the list is based on relative performances, doesn't make the conclusions invalid, right?

My one problem with this list, as Joe somewhat hinted at, is your inclusion of very popular, "mainstream" metal vocalists and almost complete exclusion of some extreme metal vocalists. Of course it's your list, and you have the right to include whoever you want, but I just find it a little contradictory that you're saying you're avoiding emotional delivery and the aural appeal of vocal lines, yet have included almost all clean vocalists on here. It does indeed give a very cliche aura of bias towards clean vocalists and more popular metal bands, and if you're going to focus on objective ability vocalist-wise, then let's not forget that vocalists can still growl, shriek, scream, etc. with creativity and talent. Just my personal opinion, but I think this list would seem a lot more mature and complete with the inclusion of some vocalists who do both (clean and extreme vocals), such as...

1. Joe Duplantier
2. Ihsahn
3. Jason Mendonca
4. Alexander Von Meilenwald

Written by Auntie Sahar on 13.10.2013 at 18:36

My one problem with this list, as Joe somewhat hinted at, is your inclusion of very popular, "mainstream" metal vocalists and almost complete exclusion of some extreme metal vocalists. Of course it's your list, and you have the right to include whoever you want, but I just find it a little contradictory that you're saying you're avoiding emotional delivery and the aural appeal of vocal lines, yet have included almost all clean vocalists on here. It does indeed give a very cliche aura of bias towards clean vocalists and more popular metal bands, and if you're going to focus on objective ability vocalist-wise, then let's not forget that vocalists can still growl, shriek, scream, etc. with creativity and talent. Just my personal opinion, but I think this list would seem a lot more mature and complete with the inclusion of some vocalists who do both (clean and extreme vocals), such as...

1. Joe Duplantier
2. Ihsahn
3. Jason Mendonca
4. Alexander Von Meilenwald

I will certainly have a look at the suggestions. Firstly, over half the list consists of bands which are hardly mainstream in relation to the fan-base on MS. Secondly, I only take into account the technical ability of the performed vocals (cleans in this argument) since the appeal of the vocal lines is highly subjective. I don't purposely exclude vocalists who focus on screams, however the scope of metal which I listen to tends towards prog. That's why I need suggestions like yours Remember, creativity isn't part of the criteria, lest this list become the subject of cutthroat spat

Written by LeKiwi on 13.10.2013 at 18:58

I only take into account the technical ability of the performed vocals (cleans in this argument)

You might want to include that as a little disclaimer in your intro, in that case

Written by Auntie Sahar on 13.10.2013 at 19:13

Written by LeKiwi on 13.10.2013 at 18:58

I only take into account the technical ability of the performed vocals (cleans in this argument)

You might want to include that as a little disclaimer in your intro, in that case

Done

Written by Guest on 12.10.2013 at 22:59

I think it'd be a more effective list if you limited amounts for each style to the very best and unique and encompass a wider range of styles. That's my personal preference of course.

Lol, seems like you two are at it again, eh? Anyway, I just wanted to say that your preference is the best for the sake of variety. However, I don't agree with it because then you'd have to ignore certain vocalists that do deserve to be on here. I think he should do like I did with my debut albums list: have albums (vocalists in his case) on it regardless of popularity. There's a lot of popular stuff but also way less-known albums to be found... although for someone like you those "unknown" albums are probably still quite well-known. Oh and lastly, I do agree with Joe that this list indeed mainly consists of the popular bands. And so what if those aren't in the top 50? Even bands in the top 250 could be considered (very) popular if you ask me (still 200+ fans here on MS). An example of a vocalist list with non-popular vocalists on it would be Fritillaria's list. She did a great job with it, even though many of the vocalists aren't to my liking. I still think that what she did is more difficult than what LeKiwi did here, since she even searched her own songs while you asked other to help you with finding the right song. Not strange or a bad thing of course, but I'm just pointing out the differences here. All in all, I like this list but as I said it's only really great for people who are mainly into progressive metal. So getting more variety is what this list needs.

Written by LeKiwi on 13.10.2013 at 00:53

Just proved my point with your acceptable level of "prose". You're incapable of having a discussion without that condescending tone. I've had discussions with plenty of users and I've hardly had any issues; you're a true exception. Due deference is all that I asked for, and in turn I've been mocked again. Clearly not the most mature user on this site...

I'm not here defending Joe (I'm sure he doesn't need that as he apparently can manage fine without the support of anyone), but having read this endless discussion (which I am loving by the way, since I always enjoy discussions ) it seems your tone seems way more condescending than his, at least that is how it feels to me. Saying stuff like "You're incapable of having a discussion without that condescending tone" and "Clearly not the most mature user on this site..." isn't helping your case here. Also, he ignores insults from you quite often and I'm actually surprised he can ignore them since I'm not sure if I could do that.

Written by LeKiwi on 13.10.2013 at 01:12

The only difference is that I use it in good taste, not to derail the discussion into a spat.

Except that this isn't true, as I just said. What might seem "good taste" to you doesn't necessarily mean that it means the same for everyone. In fact, it simply doesn't.

Written by LeKiwi on 13.10.2013 at 15:57

Even if what you claim held true (which is doesn't), replying in a mocking manner isn't an appropriate or mature response. I can be swayed and I don't deny being proven wrong when I am; everyone has been at some point However, you or anyone has yet to convince me of anything concrete on the subject of talent, so thus my opinions stand. I have no issue admitting I'm wrong, I do that nearly every day in my life. You're simply offended that you've met your match.

You've yet to address the fact that other lists with a greater number of popular artists have received less of these ----> Empty claims....

Except that you don't admit when you're wrong. Also, see the part I just bolded? Yep that's right, everything on this list has to do with your biased (yes, literally everyone is biased when it comes to judging music, whether you like it or not) opinions and NOT facts alone. The fact that you still don't understand or can't grasp this concept is one of the reasons that this discussion is still going on. Would you have just said "these vocalists are in my opinion very talented" or something like that, then you'd have less troubles with people like me, Joe and Fritillaria annoying you (but rightly so ). But instead you chose to defend your opinion that your opinions aren't opinions, but facts. It's your right to defend a certain point of view or opinion, but admitting defeat, which you still haven't done, shows of character and also shows you can be reasoned with. Now that you haven't admitted your wrong in any of the matters that were discussed definitely says something about it. I hate admitting I'm wrong as well and I can also be very stubborn, but if I would be in your position I would've been sensible and NOT ignored all the logical points that Joe and others (including me) have brought up. Lastly, Joe isn't really attacking this list (you don't seem to realize this), but he's "attacking" your behaviour. And while he said the list consists of mainly popular vocalists, this is still true, so what's so bad about him bringing it up. I wouldn't care if someone said that about my list if it would be the truth. It's only logical the list is popular because of the inclusion of popular bands (vocalists).

Written by LeKiwi on 13.10.2013 at 17:40

I never said that non-vocalists couldn't have the insight that some vocalists have on the subject, I simply said that if you do not possess such insight, the result of making a list like this would likely be inaccurate. You could also use induction to determine which vocalists are talented; the insight simply helps confirm such theories. I would be open to discuss with Frit if she argued that one vocal style wasn't difficult to perform, and I'm sure we could come to a resolution. The basis of this list is comparison, that I agree with. However, everything in existence is relative, yet objectivity remains in many subjects. Simply because the list is based on relative performances, doesn't make the conclusions invalid, right?

Well, I do agree a vocalist (like you or Fritillaria) is a better candidate for making a list like this. I'm not saying I can do a better job because I probably can't since I don't really care enough about vocalists to make a list like this. Although it had crossed my mind once making a list of my favourite female vocalists, but Fritillaria beat me to it and I could never do a better job than she did, except that I would also add popular vocalists simply because they deserve to be on it. She chose sticking by her own idea of the list over popularity, because I'm sure her list would be way more popular if she had included vocalists like Vibeke Stene, Tarja, Simone Simons, Floor Jansen etc. Just pointing out that having popular bands in a list simply makes the list more popular, most of the time. And to answer your final question: no, it doesn't make the inclusion (which is what you meant I think) of the vocalists invalid. I would even believe you're quite a good judge of measuring the talent of vocalists, don't get me wrong. The only issue I have is that you claim to be unbiased. And that is simply untrue because you said yourself everything is relative (which is true of course) and despite the fact that you might be more objective than someone else, you can never be 100% objective. I said this before and you simply ignored this.

Written by Erik M. on 14.10.2013 at 00:32

Lol, seems like you two are at it again, eh? Anyway, I just wanted to say that your preference is the best for the sake of variety. However, I don't agree with it because then you'd have to ignore certain vocalists that do deserve to be on here. I think he should do like I did with my debut albums list: have albums (vocalists in his case) on it regardless of popularity. There's a lot of popular stuff but also way less-known albums to be found... although for someone like you those "unknown" albums are probably still quite well-known. Oh and lastly, I do agree with Joe that this list indeed mainly consists of the popular bands. And so what if those aren't in the top 50? Even bands in the top 250 could be considered (very) popular if you ask me (still 200+ fans here on MS). An example of a vocalist list with non-popular vocalists on it would be Fritillaria's list. She did a great job with it, even though many of the vocalists aren't to my liking. I still think that what she did is more difficult than what LeKiwi did here, since she even searched her own songs while you asked other to help you with finding the right song. Not strange or a bad thing of course, but I'm just pointing out the differences here. All in all, I like this list but as I said it's only really great for people who are mainly into progressive metal. So getting more variety is what this list needs.

I'm in the process of adding dozens of vocalists so you can't claim that, since this list isn't complete. I like I said before, around half the list consists bands with a popularity index of less than 500 (less than 100 fans); you can check if you like. You have to remember that MS users generally have greater knowledge of such bands, so what can be considered "popular" here is relative. While I delve deep unto obscure progressive metal, however I rely upon the user suggestions to discover similarly less known bands in other sub-genres. If I wanted to make a list called "Decent Vocalists From Obscure Bands" I would have done what Fritillaria did; that is not my intention as was clear from the get go. I know of plenty relatively hidden bands with vocalists who are good, but nothing more. That's not to say she doesn't have any talented vocalists on her list because some of them are. Also I happen to be meticulous, so I refuse to put any song up, it has to be the ideal one. Those are the differences. I'm all for variety if the criteria is met and plenty of the pending considerations are vocalists of non-progressive metal bands. Time is what this list needs.

Quote:

I'm not here defending Joe (I'm sure he doesn't need that as he apparently can manage fine without the support of anyone), but having read this endless discussion (which I am loving by the way, since I always enjoy discussions ) it seems your tone seems way more condescending than his, at least that is how it feels to me. Saying stuff like "You're incapable of having a discussion without that condescending tone" and "Clearly not the most mature user on this site..." isn't helping your case here. Also, he ignores insults from you quite often and I'm actually surprised he can ignore them since I'm not sure if I could do that.

Well you are doing so inadvertently, but I don't care if you take sides. Throughout our entire discussion, Joe has resorted to mockery to prove a point. I only began to point out the observations that you have quoted after he refused to discontinue said mockery. Up until the middle of the discussion I let his snide remarks slide; so, in fact, it is me who's been taking little heed to his unscrupulous behaviour. Go search the number of times he called me arrogant before I even mentioned any word related to immature; it will surprise you.

Quote:

Except that you don't admit when you're wrong. Also, see the part I just bolded? Yep that's right, everything on this list has to do with your biased (yes, literally everyone is biased when it comes to judging music, whether you like it or not) opinions and NOT facts alone. The fact that you still don't understand or can't grasp this concept is one of the reasons that this discussion is still going on. Would you have just said "these vocalists are in my opinion very talented" or something like that, then you'd have less troubles with people like me, Joe and Fritillaria annoying you (but rightly so ). But instead you chose to defend your opinion that your opinions aren't opinions, but facts. It's your right to defend a certain point of view or opinion, but admitting defeat, which you still haven't done, shows of character and also shows you can be reasoned with. Now that you haven't admitted your wrong in any of the matters that were discussed definitely says something about it. I hate admitting I'm wrong as well and I can also be very stubborn, but if I would be in your position I would've been sensible and NOT ignored all the logical points that Joe and others (including me) have brought up. Lastly, Joe isn't really attacking this list (you don't seem to realize this), but he's "attacking" your behaviour.

Bias is born of prejudice, which implies that you are indirectly noting that this list lacks a logical process. That is a false accusation since additions to this list are followed by a thorough examination a candidate's performance. If their performance excels with certain styles that are difficult to perform, then they are added. You're using the logical fallacy of overgeneralisation - just as Joe has - if you think that simply because you, Frit, Joe, and mz agree with each other, the implication is your arguments are of truth. I'd appreciate if you could show me a single occasion where you have deemed on of the arguments on this thread sufficiently sound to disprove what I have said. I'm reasonable enough to admit that my statements have been disproved when they have been. So go ahead and show me, please. Also, please give me a quote where I've shown such unwarranted behaviour.

Quote:

Well, I do agree a vocalist (like you or Fritillaria) is a better candidate for making a list like this. I'm not saying I can do a better job because I probably can't since I don't really care enough about vocalists to make a list like this. Although it had crossed my mind once making a list of my favourite female vocalists, but Fritillaria beat me to it and I could never do a better job than she did, except that I would also add popular vocalists simply because they deserve to be on it. She chose sticking by her own idea of the list over popularity, because I'm sure her list would be way more popular if she had included vocalists like Vibeke Stene, Tarja, Simone Simons, Floor Jansen etc. Just pointing out that having popular bands in a list simply makes the list more popular, most of the time. And to answer your final question: no, it doesn't make the inclusion (which is what you meant I think) of the vocalists invalid. I would even believe you're quite a good judge of measuring the talent of vocalists, don't get me wrong. The only issue I have is that you claim to be unbiased. And that is simply untrue because you said yourself everything is relative (which is true of course) and despite the fact that you might be more objective than someone else, you can never be 100% objective. I said this before and you simply ignored this.

I've already addressed the subject of popularity above. I want to fulfill the premise of this list and to do so I must include every vocalist who qualifies, popular or not. All human creations (as I said earlier in this thread) are prone to human error and the influences of the subconscious, and that includes this list. So at this point, it is certainly possible (and likely) that I've mistakenly added a vocalist who does not qualify; I'm just waiting for a user to point out which vocalist(s) that is and I'd be willing to discuss the reason for their inclusion and decide whether to maintain said inclusion. Once you become aware of which techniques exist and which are difficult to perform, then you have a sound basis for judging vocal talent accurately. This list is as objective as possible with the subject in question; I've even reduced the premise to focus on vocal technique. How do you see subjectivity influencing my list? For instance, do you imagine that I listen to some vocals and think, "Too easy to perform," or, "I don't like his sound" and then ignore them? To me it's clear which techniques are difficult so I don't really have an issue determining relative talent. I'm curious as to where you would note an personal involvement in the decision-making process.

Edit: If you want to get philosophical, everything is based on perception and preconceived notions and thus subjective. However, then even the definitions of words (including subjective) are subjective. What would the point be if we simply considered everything subjective. Without a point of reference, we would face chaos. Objectivity has to be assumed in cases where claims have yet to be disproved, as with this list. I don't see the point in arguing if you hold that perspective, so I will agree with you that this list is purely subjective.

Written by Auntie Sahar on 13.10.2013 at 18:36

1. Joe Duplantier
2. Ihsahn
3. Jason Mendonca
4. Alexander Von Meilenwald

I've just added Joe, Ihsahn, and Jason although the first and last have been ascribed different tracks than suggested.

Alex has some deep and resonant cleans with a pretty average scream. In order to make a valid judgement, I would have to hear him perform unharmonised cleans. Can such a performance be found?

In other news, Oli Sykes has quite the voice. Anything from gutturals to cleans. He would be a great addition.

For Pantera I suggest This Love. I think it has everything Anselmo was capable of.

As for Vektor, one can pretty much take any song However, for especially outstanding vocal mutilations I would be choosing between Black Future, Accelerating Universe or Destroying the Cosmos

I believe both guys deserve go be among those with stars, just like Mikael Akerfeldt by the way.

Great list.

Written by LeKiwi on 14.10.2013 at 04:45

Alex has some deep and resonant cleans with a pretty average scream. In order to make a valid judgement, I would have to hear him perform unharmonised cleans. Can such a performance be found?

Well The Ruins Of Beverast are a one man band, and thus haven't really done a lot of performances. The only shows thus far that Alex actually put together a live band for were for Roadburn, Deathkult, and a few other little festivals earlier this year. Your best bet is to try to find some bootlegged footage of that (on Youtube, I'm sure) and see for yourself. Alex will be the bald guy.

The fact that Phil Anselmo is on this list over Dax Rigs, Johannes Persson or Oli like I previously stated is actually criminal.

Written by Boxcar Willy on 15.10.2013 at 04:53

The fact that Phil Anselmo is on this list over Dax Rigs, Johannes Persson or Oli like I previously stated is actually criminal.

Disparate vocal techniques. Please post some links.

For Gojira you have Mario Duplantier listed as the vocalist, just wanted to point out that he's actually the drummer. Joe Duplantier is the vocalist.

Written by Saiyanity on 22.10.2013 at 14:18

For Gojira you have Mario Duplantier listed as the vocalist, just wanted to point out that he's actually the drummer. Joe Duplantier is the vocalist.

Thanks

Well I just came up with a suggestion, Joseph E Martinez, of Junius. I'd happy to see your verdict on his abilities, whether he's considered talented to be added or not:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rty7jOMKi8U
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nhXbYNq4lf8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KDDdVCEgjyw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=byh1SCi89IM

Perhaps I didn't catch this entry, but what about Simen Hestnæs aka "ICS Vortex"?

Written by Shipwrecked on 11.11.2013 at 09:30

Perhaps I didn't catch this entry, but what about Simen Hestnæs aka "ICS Vortex"?

Did he perform the clean vocals for Borknagar's Urd? I wasn't sure so I didn't add him.

Written by LeKiwi on 11.11.2013 at 09:58

Written by Shipwrecked on 11.11.2013 at 09:30

Perhaps I didn't catch this entry, but what about Simen Hestnæs aka "ICS Vortex"?

Did he perform the clean vocals for Borknagar's Urd? I wasn't sure so I didn't add him.

Yes, it was him, alongside Vintersorg.

Written by Shipwrecked on 13.11.2013 at 08:16

Yes, it was him, alongside Vintersorg.

So Vintersorg does cleans also? If so, could you let me know which part of any song on Urd features him performing those?